Lauren Martino: Welcome to Library Matters, I am your host Lauren Martino.
Julie Dina: And I am Julie Dina.
Lauren Martino: Turn on the lights, make sure your cell phone has reception, lock the door to the basement and whatever you do, don’t say, "I'll be right back". We have the librarians Heather Wright from Olney Library and Tom Palmer from Silver Spring Library with us today and we are about to explore the world of horror fiction and horror movies, what they are, what they do to us and why we keep coming back for more, Tom and Heather, welcome to the show.
Heather Wright: Thank you.
Tom Palmer: Thank you for having me.
Julie Dina: So let's begin the show, with getting a clear understanding or the definition of a horror book or film.
Heather Wright: It's literature that reminds us that the world is not safe and that we need to have a healthy caution at all times.
Tom Palmer: I like that.
Heather Wright: Such as now.
Lauren Martino: It sounds like — yes, is that from Neil Gaiman?
Heather Wright: Possibly.
Lauren Martino: Yeah it sounds like something he'd say. So we called you in here today, I know Tom — I was sitting next to Tom on the desk and asked him if he would do this with us and he said yes, but said he was going through a horror kick recently and had also taken a class in horror fiction in college.
Heather Wright: Cool.
Lauren Martino: What draws you to — why now, what's fueling this horror kick of yours?
Tom Palmer: So I recently started reading Stephen King and I am huge fantasy nerd and I read his dark tower series which is kind of like a mash up of horror and fantasy.
Lauren Martino: Everything he does is a mash up or horror, like whatever else he is writing about, yes.
Tom Palmer: I would say that is about right, and so then I went on, I am reading "It" right now by Stephen King, I have read the classics, Shelley and Dracula, but I think what I like about it is it explores themes that are sort of universal to people but are maybe taboo in other genres, whether it's something like revenge, repressed memories or just fear in general. It might be part of a book in another genre, but in horror it's really sort of the focus and you can sort of dig deep into those and sort of — it almost makes you feel introspective about things you don’t normally think about, who wants to think about when they are afraid? But it can be fun in the same way people like being scared in movies and what not.
Heather Wright: I agree, I think one of the things I like the most about horror and I don’t read a lot of horror but —
Tom Palmer: I don’t either.
Heather Wright: But I started reading Stephen King when he first came out with Carrie and was hooked ever since but what I like about a good horror novel is not that it scares me, that sort of is the secondary thing but that if it makes me think and ponder about something, that is a little bit deeper, and they often do, like what is the meaning of life or what's out there, that could be out there that we don’t think about and is there something evil and inhuman in nature that sometimes comes out under certain circumstances, that's the kind of thing I like.
Lauren Martino: Or even what is precious that we might be losing if an evil clown gets set loose on the world.
Julie Dina: So with that being said, what would you then say makes a good horror story?
Heather Wright: Well, a couple of things, first of all it needs to have that "What if?" And I will put that in quotation marks, "What if" scenario. What if an evil clown reached out of the sewer and grabbed children, what if a vampire came to your town, what if something that ordinarily wouldn’t happen combined with two other things. I think you need the feeling of suspense as you are reading it, what is going to happen next, it's got to be a real page turner and an element of surprise, there has to be something that makes you think, whoa that just happened, I didn't see that coming, those three things I believe are necessary.
Tom Palmer: And I completely agree, the what if, the fear of the unknown is a huge aspect of horror movies and books but for me first and foremost any book has to be readable, it has to have a good flow, I have to sort of be drawn in and then I've read books before where the what if, the hook was interesting but I just sort of couldn’t get into the story and I think people like Stephen King do a good job of making it readable and sort of universal and relatable and then of course you’ve got to have a little bit of fear and that introspective feeling that you were talking about. But really it's the basic, is like any other genre, just a good book with horror elements added in I think.
Julie Dina: I've always wondered why do people want to be scared though, why?
Heather Wright: Well not everybody does want to be scared but there are interesting theories about those that do want to be scared, why they want to be scared and I will tell you what research says and then I will tell you my theory my — armchair psychologist theory — to see if Tom you agree with me.
Julie Dina: Listen up.
Heather Wright: Okay so way back in our ancestor days, the days of the cavemen they lived in constant fear that they were going to be eaten by a wild animal and so —
Lauren Martino: A justifiable fear.
Heather Wright: Yes. That was a justifiable fear and so ingrained in each human being was this fighter flight aspect of life, it was the surge of adrenaline that they immediately had to decide do I run away and escape this animal who is going to eat me or do I fight this animal and eat this animal? So that went on for a few millennia and then came civilization and things calmed down a little bit and there were fewer wild animals out there that were going to eat us but we still have that fight or flight instinct physically and we still need that rush of adrenaline. So at that point people started telling each other stories around a camp fire, stories with evil spirits that were going to take them off somewhere and that was sort of the beginning of the horror genre to sort of satisfy that the need for adrenaline, and now I am going to add my armchair psychologist aspect of it. In modern times, there is a ton of stuff out there that could scare the hell out of you that really is happening. We have weather phenomena, we have terrorist threats, we have crazy shooters if you start thinking about this you could really go crazy with fear. So we don’t want to think about this, so what our subconscious does is create fear out things that probably are not going to happen, things like clowns reaching up out of the sewer, things like vampires in our bedrooms and if we can be scared of that for a little while and see that we can vanquish that, then our need for adrenaline rushes is satisfied, I rest my case.
Tom Palmer: Well way to leave nothing for me to say —
Heather Wright: Oh I am sorry.
Tom Palmer: But I completely agree with you, I think the sort of primal reason is people like that shock to the system endorphins feel good, not everyone likes that shock but it's that if you are going through life and things are dull, dreary, it can feel good to sort of be jolted and think and reexamine life. But I would agree it can help to sort of experience fear in a way that you know is probably not going to happen. For instance, like I don’t really like realistic horror, I am not a big fan of serial killer stuff because that happens and it's not something I want to think about but I think we are safe from demonic clowns so that is something I don’t mind reading about… hopefully.
Lauren Martino: Yeah hopefully, what's that under the table?
Tom Palmer: Right, but yeah basically I think it boils down to that fighter flight and that feeling alive I think.
Julie Dina: So some would go bungee jumping and some would just go for a horror book.
Heather Wright: Exactly.
Tom Palmer: I think that is exactly right.
Lauren Martino: Have either of you been unable to finish a book because it was too scary, too gruesome, too troubling?
Tom Palmer: This actually happened to me for the first time recently.
Lauren Martino: First time?
Tom Palmer: If you would have asked me three months ago, I would have said no, I don’t know what that says about modern media and the way I grew up but I'm pretty desensitized to like, just to movies, video games, violence but I actually read American Psycho recently by Bret Easton Ellis and there was a part in the book involving a rat, if you have read it before you will know what I am talking about.
Heather Wright: No.
Tom Palmer: It is just awful and it was sort of — it seemed to me like violence for violence sake and I sort of felt like, why am I reading this, I know this isn’t fun and so I think that is the one and only time that a book has been a little too much for me, I never finished it.
Heather Wright: I have one that I did finish but I kind of didn’t want and this was a recent Stephen King book called Revival, this came out a few years ago and it’s about a preacher who stops being a preacher because his family is killed in a horrible accident and he doesn’t believe in God anymore so he decides not to be a preacher but he develops this ability to cure people, did you read Revival?
Tom Palmer: I haven’t, I've heard, but I have read about it though.
Heather Wright: Okay and he uses a form of electricity, he calls it special electricity that somehow can cure people, but after they are cured, they have seizures where they see visions of a strange landscape that can't be explained. So to make a very long story short, he uses this electricity and hooks it up to someone who is dying, with the theory being that as they die, he can get a vision through this electricity of what they are seeing and what they are going through. So it happens and it's horrible and it's just horrible, it's the closest thing to hell that I can imagine, that immediately you are led away by huge monsters that look like ants and you are beaten and tortured for the rest of your existence and I kind of — I didn’t want to finish but I had to finish and I stayed away from Stephen King for a while after that.
Julie Dina: Where would you say he gets his inspiration from?
Heather Wright: Stephen King has said that he was inspired in his writing by a fellow named Richard Matheson who wrote one of the first zombie stories which is called "I Am Legend" which some of you may have heard of and some other modern horror writers have also said Peter Straub I believe and Dean Koontz have also been influenced by this guy who writes a lot of psychological suspense into his horror.
Lauren Martino: What is the point of zombies if they are not suspenseful? Actually, I grew up in Peachtree City which is not far away from Senoia Georgia, which is where The Walking Dead is filmed now, so my whole town is pretty much like overrun with zombies and zombie actors and like it's kind of strange.
Heather Wright: Yeah that would be a great vacation site, do they market that it's there?
Lauren Martino: Oh they do, oh my goodness, like there is like a little downtown with the cute little shops that have zombie soap and zombie candles and I am not making this up.
Heather Wright: Wow, it could have an amusement park, zombie rides.
Julie Dina: That might be next.
Lauren Martino: I am sure it's coming.
Heather Wright: I'd like to go.
Lauren Martino: It's like I never thought this would happen in my hometown. The book that I read that I could not finish — and I don’t know if this quite counts because it is a true story but there is a graphic novel called My Friend Dahmer by Derf Backderf.
Tom Palmer: Okay that doesn’t sound good already.
Lauren Martino: Yes, no it was written by a friend of Jeffery Dahmer's from high school and exploring like why — what may have gone wrong or you know what happened in high school that may have — and you know I was pregnant at the time so I was already queasy all the time and you know there is something about the drawing of it that it's just — the drawing just looks gross, even if it's not portraying anything gross like Ren and Stimpy or you know like —
Tom Palmer: Oh boy.
Lauren Martino: Or you know, Beavis and Butthead, there is something with —
Julie Dina: Beavis and Butthead —
Lauren Martino: You know, you just look at the drawing and it just kind of grosses you out and the whole book is like that even when nothing gross is happening and of course gross stuff does happen, so yeah that — so yeah I just was like I am feeling too queasy, I can't do this.
Julie Dina: And now, a brief message about MCPL resources and services
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Julie Dina: Now back to our program.
Lauren Martino: We talk about why people are into this, why some people just can't stop being scared and I've known kids that inexplicably like it was like all he wants to read is horror books, should I be giving them all these horror books? What do you think about that? I mean because really young kids sometimes, they've got this craving and how much —
Heather Wright: Well I think if a kid has a craving for any kind of book, being a children's librarian, you give them that kind of book.
Lauren Martino: Yes.
Heather Wright: Yeah I mean with some exceptions probably but children have the same feelings that adults have about being afraid, even stronger, I think if a child faces something frightening in a book or a movie that has conquered them, you have to make sure that the good does conquer for children and it often does in a children's book then that makes the child feel a sense of power that good does conquer evil and that I think a child gets a feeling of self-confidence from this so I would not steer a child away if they are interested but I also wouldn’t force a child to read horror.
Lauren Martino: Do you think it makes a difference if it's a movie or a book? Like would you feel the same way about exposing your child to a horror movie versus it in writing?
Tom Palmer: I think a movie is another level these days, some of the horror movies that are made, I mean, now but going back to the 70s are just — no I would not like my child seeing that. I think a book, there is a little more leeway but I tend to — other genres I might let them read a bit of an older book like a science fiction something, drama but horror can have some really disturbing aspects to it and I think it's very much an adult thing. I mean there can be their Coraline horror-ish fiction and —
Lauren Martino: And that is scary enough.
Tom Palmer: And it is scary.
Lauren Martino: Oh my gosh, the audio book, the singing rats, well about the bones —
Tom Palmer: So I think children are interested because anytime you say don’t read this and don’t look at this, of course they are going to say why I want to look at that? But I have vivid memories of seeing movies as a child and thinking I shouldn’t be watching this, I'm going to get scared but you can't help it and you want to see what the big deal is and of course I was frightened later and so maybe I would try to avoid that with my own child, I am sure he will see it, you know but.
Heather Wright: Well part of the problem is that movies don’t necessarily end happy.
Tom Palmer: Oh no, very rarely.
Heather Wright: Definitely not, I will tell you about a movie that my parents took me to, this may have been the first movie that I ever saw in a movie theater, I was five years old and they couldn’t get a babysitter so the first movie I ever saw was, Psycho.
Lauren Martino: Oh my goodness.
Heather Wright: Oh my goodness is right, so I still — I remember this day, I don’t remember much from when I was five but I remember turning around and crying and not facing the screen at the end, not the shower scene, I didn’t care what was going on and a five year old wouldn’t care about that but at the very end when the rocking chair turns around and you see sitting in this rocking chair, this rotting corpse of an old woman, still years afterwards, every window, I would see this face in the window, it was really hard for me to get to sleep and I can still picture it vividly so my parents were good parents except for that day.
Julie Dina: So have you stayed away from windows now?
Heather Wright: That’s hard if you are actually. And plus I have seen Psycho a few more times.
Julie Dina: Oh okay, you’ve conquered.
Heather Wright: I have toughened up.
Julie Dina: Yes, you've conquered your fear.
Lauren Martino: But that didn’t keep you away from showers though I think that would have really taught your parents a lesson.
Heather Wright: That is true, “Well honey Heather is really smelling bad today, it's your fault.”
Julie Dina: It’s funny you brought that up because I was going to ask you, what would you consider the scariest movie, book or film that you have ever seen or story?
Heather Wright: Well I gave this one some thought and I am not going to say Psycho, because — I am going to say it's the book and the movie, both scared me, see if you agree with me, The Exorcist.
Julie Dina: Oh yeah I will never forget that one.
Heather Wright: Wow, well in the movie, the imagery I thought was so realistic at the time, probably now, people would laugh at that but what really scared me about The Exorcist, was then later I did some research being a librarian you know, a future librarian at the time and this kind of thing really happens. The Exorcist was based on a true story in Prince George's County.
Tom Palmer: Yeah absolutely.
Lauren Martino: Where in Prince George's County?
Julie Dina: What?
Heather Wright: I forget but you can look it up and I mean that’s just one example, these things happen all the time, so that is what scares me when I think whoa, this could happen to me anytime, but it hasn’t. How about you Tom?
Tom Palmer: Well I will state up front that I'm a pretty big wimp when it comes to movies, I actually don’t love horror movies and my wife is even a bigger wimp so we are not a big horror movie family. I actually think one of the scariest books I have read is Frankenstein and it's just so different from the movie — the book. So you sort of have in the movie this big stupid monster and then in the book, he is very much intelligent and has emotions and struggles with those and I don’t know if it scared me but I remember feeling sort of, my God I can't imagine knowing who created you and then immediately they say you are disgusting and I hate you and go away and then he grapples with those feelings and it's actually a very heartbreaking book but I was amazed at how scary it was for a book that was written a long time ago and the fact that Mary Shelley was 19 years old or something when she wrote that, it's just unbelievable to me.
Lauren Martino: I bet there's 19 year olds out there that —
Tom Palmer: Yeah but I —
Lauren Martino: Given the right training, yes.
Tom Palmer: Yeah so that’s true.
Julie Dina: So would you then say that the horror genre has developed or changed over time?
Heather Wright: Yeah. Well like I think I said before, horror stems back to when people started telling each other stories around camp fires, there has always been an element of horror. I think horror fiction as we know it now probably started to develop during — when Shelley wrote Frankenstein and this was the 19th century and a lot of classic horror books came out then, Dracula and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and the stories of Edgar Allan Poe and this used to scare people which is interesting because things were written very differently then, there weren’t things where people jump out behind things and scare people, it was much more atmospheric and using your imagination. A lot wordier as time has gone on, things have changed I think, modern horror. People say really Stephen King was one of the first who created the kind of horror fiction that we have now where besides just supernatural things, he uses things that scare us in modern society, things like call phones that can — it can cause a plague if anyone has read Cell.
Tom Palmer: Viruses yeah.
Lauren Martino: Yes.
Heather Wright: Okay or just evil lurking in the most unlikely places and now actually in modern horror things have changed even more, just in the last couple of year I think there's — since the teen series Twilight by Stephenie Meyer that came out, it was kind of the only thing like it at the time but there's just been a glut of things for teens and then spreading down to children and for adults on vampires and werewolves and zombies and it's just kind of everywhere you look now.
Tom Palmer: Yeah I would agree with everything you are saying, I think horror film has sort of — I think there's still good horror films but a lot of it is, in my opinion just sort of upping the antique with the violence and with the —
Lauren Martino: You have to have somewhere to go.
Tom Palmer: Yes and just sort of I would say shock tactics and that is one of the reasons I am not a huge fan, there is not a lot of subtlety these days but fiction, Heather said it pretty well, it's just sort of tamed by today's standards but I think authors can be more creative now with what they write. I think back then it was maybe ghosts or someone, a killer or something and now it can be anything, Stephen King uses what he calls the Macro verse, that’s creatures from other universes and I think that would have been maybe unpublishable back in the 20s or something like that. So I think —
Lauren Martino: Those imaginations hadn’t quite stretched that far.
Tom Palmer: Exactly but —
Heather Wright: Isn't the clown from It from that universe?
Tom Palmer: He is; he is not from our universe right.
Heather Wright: Well thank goodness for that.
Tom Palmer: Yeah.
Julie Dina: Do you think some of this is expanding into TV shows too these days?
Lauren Martino: You know I have seen more and more of — you know I sat through Stranger Things and it was —
Heather Wright: Loved it.
Lauren Martino: It was hard, oh my gosh but I couldn’t stop, like I just couldn’t stop and I feel like we are seeing more and more of that too where you get the chance to really develop.
Heather Wright: Yeah I've been trying, I love horror TV, I grew up with The Twilight Zone and absolutely loved it and I have been trying to find something that rivets me the way that — I tried stranger things absolutely, I am a fan of that "Bates Motel", see that is a Psycho thing. The Bates Motel series which is the origins or Norman Bates and how he got be the way he is and his relationship with his mother, it's all very creepy. I've been trying to watch American Horror Story, I don’t know if anyone has watched that, the first two seasons were fantastic, it's gotten very strange with the addition of Lady Gaga which is in itself somewhat horrific.
Lauren Martino: That is strange yeah.
Heather Wright: I know but I keep trying and then I used to watch The X-Files and there's so much of it out there now, I think it goes along with the literature, there is just — there seems to be a glut of it now.
Tom Palmer: Have you tried Penny Dreadful?
Heather Wright: No but I have heard about it, is that good?
Tom Palmer: I can't recommend it enough, it's got sort of a lot of the classic characters from horror, it's got Victor Frankenstein, Dracula but sort of a different take on — it's only three seasons but so good, you should definitely try it.
Heather Wright: Oh I will, I will tonight, how about Black Mirror, it's on Netflix, it's sort of… it's horror from a very modern perspective taking into account the way technology is going and then they take the "What if technology turns in this direction, kind of in a twisted way" how would that affect what our lives are like? It's fantastic.
Julie Dina: Since a lot of these scary movies or books or stories have tricks in them — would you say or could you tell us of a book that you know is actually very scary but isn’t marketed as a horror book?
Tom Palmer: It's hard because the book I have in mind, it's not that of a stretch but it's The Road by Cormac McCarthy and it's sort of in a post apocalyptic book so it's not a huge stretch but it's not marketed necessarily as a horror book but it's very intense in the sense of, should some sort of environmental disaster happen and society broke down, you know some of the things that is in the book, you can see humans doing and it's very disturbing, because it's again that idea of this could happen, humans can behave this way and it's very scary so that would be mine.
Heather Wright: And I am going to say a book called Geek Love, G-E-E-K.
Julie Dina: I've seen that book.
Heather Wright: By Katherine Dunn.
Lauren Martino: Is it — please tell me more, why is this a scary book?
Heather Wright: Okay it's not marketed as horror but it's so horrible, oh my God, it's about a couple who run a carnival and they want their carnival to be more popular, so you are not going to believe — so what they do is the woman takes drugs and chemicals into her system in order when she is pregnant to create fetuses that have abnormalities on purpose so that these will be oddities in their carnival and so they've got Siamese twins, they've got a son who has no arms and legs and he's got flippers instead and their whole family is made up of — well I don’t want to say the word but the book says of geeks. So it is about this carnival that they have and the son who doesn’t have arms or legs and has flippers is also very handsome and women fall in love with him when they see him floating around in his tank and so he starts a cult and in order to be a part of the cult and come to the meetings and get to hang out with him you have to cut off a body part so that you are like him and the more body parts that you cut off, the higher in this cult you get to rise. Now we were down to hardly any copies in the Montgomery County library system, maybe this is a good thing, but I just read an email about new books that they are buying and that is one of them.
Tom Palmer: Oh my.
Lauren Martino: Oh Gosh.
Heather Wright: So other people must like this book, well not like — it isn’t the word, but must read this book other than myself.
Lauren Martino: I can't let go of Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro, like I am totally slaughtering his name. He just won the Nobel Prize right, Kazuo Ishiguro which is basically — and spoiler alert, here is your chance to stuff up your ears because as you go further in the book, like they never say it outright but you keep being like oh my gosh, that's what this book is about but they just keep hinting at it until the very end. But yeah we are living in this world where people are cloned pretty much for the purpose of donating their organs and like right around maybe 30 or so, they complete or something to that effect where it's like you know, congratulations, you are done, and they take everything and that is the end of you and it's just — it's the most horrific thing and I mean the whole book is about trying to find humanity and meaning, leaving like this. So I mean it's much more than just the disturbing part of it but it's just like I'm still to this day haunted by some of the images and what happens in this book, I just can't let it go.
Julie Dina: So there you are at the Information Desk and someone approaches and your heart starts racing and your palms grow sweaty because it is somebody from a book or movie you've read recently, it's the last person you wanted to see, who is it and what do they ask for?
Tom Palmer: That's a tough one; I'll give it some thought, possibly Hannibal Lecter asking for a copy of how to cook everything, maybe a wine guide.
Lauren Martino: A wine guide.
Tom Palmer: That is what I came up with.
Heather Wright: Pennywise the Clown from It he is a really very gross clown who kills little children and the more frightened they are the better they taste and he would come up to the service desk and he would say to me where is the children's room? I don’t know, we don’t have one.
Lauren Martino: So do you have anything you'd recommend for somebody looking for some of these items and interested in learning more, where should they go on our website or among our resources to find out more?
Tom Palmer: In terms of resources we always have the Reader's Café online and What Do I Check Out Next which is a great function on our main webpage so that has plenty of good recommendations for horror books.
Lauren Martino: And you are one of the recommenders for that aren’t you Heather?
Heather Wright: Yeah, yes and I have recommended horror books to people, not a lot.
Julie Dina: But some.
Heather Wright: But some, yes. What Do I Check Out Next is a service provided by Montgomery County librarians where you email in a question, what type of books you are interested in and within three to five days, one of our librarians who do this will email you back with a list of three to five books and a little description of each and why we think that book would be interesting to you.
Julie Dina: And finally it's our tradition here on Library Matters to ask our guests, to see what they have enjoyed reading recently would you guys share with us what books you have actually enjoyed reading recently?
Heather Wright: Well the book I am reading now and almost done, I am going to finish it tonight, is called The Motion of Puppets and this is kind of horror, it's by Keith Donohue, who is actually a local writer, I think he lives in Bethesda. This is about a couple who are recently married and she works for a circus and one day on her way home from the circus to her apartment she goes into a toy store, that she has always admired the toys in the toy store especially the puppets in the window. Let's see where this is going and she goes in at night after hours and for some reason the door is open and the proprietor of the toy shop assaults her and turns her into a puppet. Takes out her organs, stuffs her with stuffing and she becomes one of the puppets that live in the toy store. Now for some reason the puppets in the toy store are also alive, they can come alive at night and talk to each other. So the story then alternates between her life as a puppet and her husband who doesn’t know what happened to her and he is trying to find her and one day he sees on TV a parade of puppets that this toy store has done and he sees a puppet that looks just like his wife. So he's got a clue now how to find her and where I am now is he's just found the shop where she is but he hasn’t found her yet so we'll found out what happens when I get home tonight.
Lauren Martino: That sounds a lot like —
Tom Palmer: That sounds very exciting.
Lauren Martino: It sounds like Splendors and Glooms by —
Heather Wright: Yes which I have also read, yes.
Lauren Martino: I love that park, that’s the —
Heather Wright: Yes that's the same theme but with a child — a little girl turned into a puppet yeah which is a very spooky creepy thing really when you think about it.
Lauren Martino: Yeah.
Heather Wright: So don’t think about it.
Julie Dina: Tom?
Tom Palmer: Well my recommendation and the book I just finished was It for the reasons I said before. Before that I read American Gods by Neil Gaiman, not really horror-ish but fantasy. It is about — the concept is the old gods that were worshiped in ancient times Thor and all these different ones trying to stay relevant in today's world where people either don’t believe in God or tend to believe in a God and this is the whole pantheon of old gods trying to find followers because that's where their powers comes from basically. So it is very interesting and it is also a TV show now which is good.
Heather Wright: Everything is turning into a TV show.
Julie Dina: Yes.
Lauren Martino: They've got to come up with their ideas somehow.
Julie Dina: Well thanks Heather and Tom for joining us on this episode of library matters, we appreciate all the wonderful scary information you’ve given us, don’t turn off the light. Let's keep the conversation going by following us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on new Apple podcast app, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. Also please review and rate us on Apple podcasts, we'd love to know what you think, thank you for listening to our conversation today and see you next time.
Recording Date: October 11, 2017
Hosts: Julie Dina and Lauren Martino
Episode Summary: We talk with horror fiction fans Tom Palmer and Heather Wright about horror books and movies. Why do people find such fiction appealing? What’s the scariest book they’ve read? Have they ever had to stop reading a book because it was just too scary or horrifying? Join us in our exploration of this gruesome genre, if you dare!
Guests: Tom Palmer and Heather Wright
Featured MCPL Service: Librarian's Choice, reviews of recent books our librarians have enjoyed.
What Our Guests Are Currently Reading:
Tom Palmer: American Gods by Neil Gaiman. The old gods of ancient mythology weaken as belief in them declines while the power of new gods, manifestations of modern technology, grows.
Heather Wright: The Motion of Puppets by Keith Donahue and Splendors and Glooms by Laura Amy Schlitz. In The Motion of Puppets, a circus acrobat becomes trap in a toy store when she’s transformed into a puppet. Splendor and Glooms is a childrens’ book about a girl who is kidnapped by puppeteers who perform at her 12th birthday party.
Books, Movies and Authors Mentioned During this Episode:
American Horror Story: A television series about a family that the moves into a Los Angeles area house that is haunted by demonic forces.
I Am Legend by Richard Matheson: The story of the last man alive, who is attempting to survive amidst hordes of the undead. This classic sci fi/horror book has inspired several films, including one starring Will Smith.
It by Stephen King: A shapeshifting evil feeds off the fear and death of children in a small town.
Stephen King: American author of horror, fantasy, and suspense.
Dean Koontz: American author of thrillers with frequent horror elements.
My Friend Dahmer by Derf Backderf: A high school friend of the infamous serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer explores Dahmer’s complex formative years.
Never Let Me Go by Kauzo Ishiguro: Three childhood friends reunite, but soon the dark secret of their old school forces them to confront a horrible truth.
Penny Dreadful: A psychological thriller series set in Victorian London featuring classic literary characters such as Dr. Frankenstein and Dorian Gray.
Edgar Allan Poe: A 19th century American writer, best known for his mysteries and horror stories.
Revival by Stephen King: A disillusioned preacher discovers a horrific world of torture and fear awaiting those who die.
Stranger Things: A sci fi/horror television series about the disappearance of a young boy and the supernatural events that occur in his small town.
Peter Straub: American horror novelist.
The Twilight Saga by Stephenie Meyer: Teen series about vampires and werewolves.
The Walking Dead: Television series about survivors of a worldwide catastrophe who must survive in a world filled with flesh eating zombies. Several seasons of this show have been filmed outside Senoia, Georgia, which is near host Lauren Martino’s hometown.
X-Files: FBI agents Fox Mulder and Dana Scully investigate paranormal phenomena.
MCPL Resources Mentioned During this Episode:
Adrienne Miles Holderbaum (producer): Welcome to Library Matters, the Montgomery County Public Libraries’ podcast.
Lauren Martino: Welcome to Library Matters. I’m Lauren Martino.
Julie Dina: And I’m Julie Dina.
Lauren Martino: The American Library Association has referred to libraries as first responders in times of economic crisis. Montgomery Country Public Libraries has stepped up to the plate by including a focus on providing a strong and vibrant workforce in our strategic plan. And by hiring Adrienne Van Lare last year as Montgomery Country Public Libraries’ Workforce and Business Development Coordinator to accomplish this goal.
Ms. Van Lare came to us from Montgomery Country’s Department of Economic Development where she provided business and workforce assistance to local companies. Thank you for joining us, Adrienne.
Julie Dina: So, Adrienne, can you define workforce and economic development in the context of what we do at MCPL and what does that term mean in relation to the work that you actually do.
Adrienne Van Lare: Certainly. So in terms of what we are doing at MCPL, it is all of the programs and resources that promote positive change that are improving lives, programs that ultimately better our residents and our customers and ultimately our communities. It is the high school – Career Online High School Program for example that we offer whereby students can finally complete their high school education and get a diploma. It can be the STEM Festival Programs that we have coming up for young children through teens. You know, maybe that will inspire the next wave of coders or IT developers. So it is those programs.
It is the programs for job seekers. It is how to start a business workshop to empower businesses with knowledge that will help them grow. So these – all of these programs strengthen the community. They strengthen our residence and it is a way to help contribute to the economic prosperity ultimately of our diverse community.
Lauren Martino: That is really broad and very – did it ever feel overwhelming like –
Adrienne Van Lare: All the time, all the time. And it does. It is a lot. Yeah.
Lauren Martino: Wow. But it sounds –.
Adrienne Van Lare: But it is a lot of good stuff.
Lauren Martino: It sounds like you’re doing something right though because you have received – our library has received the award from the Urban Libraries Council. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Adrienne Van Lare: Certainly. We received an Honorable Mention Award for the ULC’s Innovation Initiative Awards. These are awards that show or demonstrate the value and impact public library service in the 21st century. And they award or they give awards in 10 different categories. The category that we won in was Workforce and Economic Development. So it is very exciting.
Lauren Martino: It is.
Adrienne Van Lare: We are excited.
Lauren Martino: And what did we do to get this award? What – do you know what they were focusing on?
Adrienne Van Lare: Good question. I think that they were looking for innovations in the area of digital training. They were looking for programs for individuals to help, you know, with job skills. They were also looking for innovations in creating partnerships to roll out, you know, programs and services gear toward job seekers and small business owners. And I think we’re doing a lot in all of those areas and serving a diverse group of customers. And so hopefully that is what got us noticed by them.
Julie Dina: Great. Well, actually, tell us, well, how did you – how was it for the whole team when you first got the news?
Adrienne Van Lare: Yeah. We were very pleasantly surprised. It is – it was a big deal for us because we’ve only been at this for a year. It was about a little over a year ago that MCPL leadership decided to make workforce and economic development serve a central pillar of, you know, the strategic plan. So we thought we were doing something positive. We thought we were implementing programs to impact workforce and economic development. And this really is validation that we are moving in the right direction.
Julie Dina: Yeah.
Adrienne Van Lare: So we were thrilled.
Lauren Martino: Yeah.
Julie Dina: Tell us more about your role as workforce and business development program specialist for MCPL, and how you actually became involved with MCPL.
Adrienne Van Lare: Well, I’ve been here for about a year and a half in this role as workforce and business development specialist. I come from the world of economic development. I actually have worked in the economic development field almost my entire professional career. I’ve worked in international development at the international level and then also at state and local – at the state and local economic development level.
Most recently, I was with the county’s Department of Economic Development. Many of you may know that it recently dissolved and privatized. And around the time that it was preparing to dissolve and privatize, MCPL was getting ready to roll out their strategic plan that included a significant focus on workforce and business development. And I was then offered the opportunity to transfer from the county’s Department of Economic Development to MCPL and stay in county government.
Lauren Martino: We’re really happy to have you.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yeah. Well, I am thrilled to be here. It has been wonderful. It has been a great experience so far.
Lauren Martino: What are the main differences between what you’re doing now and what you did before?
Adrienne Van Lare: There are so many differences. It really is very different. I’m used to working directly with companies and 90% of that job involved interacting on a daily basis with local county companies, also with foreign companies looking to establish a North American presence or some sort of a presence here in Montgomery County.
But there are also similarities. I did a lot of rolling out programs for companies that wanted to work internationally, you know, doing business in Africa or doing business in India, those types of programs. So that is very similar.
Julie Dina: So it seems like you’ve basically been around the business for all the economic world. Has anything surprised you most about the library world?
Adrienne Van Lare: I think I was very surprised about the breadth of services that, you know, involved in here.
Lauren Martino: And so are we everyday.
Julie Dina: That is MCPL.
Adrienne Van Lare: So true. Everyday still even though I’ve been here a little over a year, you know, every now and then I’ll learn about some new wonderful service that you offer here that is free. Yeah. It is –.
Julie Dina: And I’m sure in the business world, you weren’t used to free.
Adrienne Van Lare: Well, that is true. That is true. But it is just amazing all of the services that you provide. I think after I had been here a week or so, someone gave me a list of like two pages long sort of spelled out, you know, of all the, you know, all the benefits that you can get with a library card and I remember being floored. And I still am continue to be surprised by just how many services, you know, we offer for free.
Lauren Martino: I like to think about best kept secrets, anything that you offer, that you think is amazing that is not – the word hasn’t quite gotten out yet and you just want to make sure everybody knows about it.
Adrienne Van Lare: I think the fact that we offer programs and services for businesses, business owners and job seekers, entrepreneurs, there is a lot in the library that they can benefit from. And I once worked with a gentleman who was setting up for example a – the US branch of a German company and he had been in Montgomery County for about five months working out of the Rockville Library.
At the time, he connected with me he was looking for a commercial space. But he did everything including Skyping, you know, from a collaboration room with his German counterparts in Germany to using the computers as his office before he was ready to actually set up and take commercial space. And not only that, he said, “You know, my wife takes English classes at the library also and my child benefits from all of the great programs and services that you offer as well.”
Julie Dina: Talking about job seekers, now why do you think the library would be a good place to offer job seekers classes and workshops?
Adrienne Van Lare: Public libraries are an important and dynamic part of the community’s learning ecosystem. And I think that we have job seekers coming to us to use our computers to do online job applications. And so while they’re here, while they’re in the library system, they may as well take advantage of the workshops that we’re offering and the programs for job seekers. So I think people are turning to libraries more and more for help with the job searches and career assistance. So I think it makes a lot of sense for us to be offering these types of programs and services.
Julie Dina: It does. Especially when they remember it is free.
Lauren Martino: Yes.
Adrienne Van Lare: Right, right.
Julie Dina: I meant you can’t forget that.
Lauren Martino: We see a lot of these customers in our branches day after day. I know you’re talking about people that basically run their business out of the library. Yeah, that is like Silver Spring all over the place. They’re spilling out, you know, any place they can find sometimes. I see people in the children section because every place is so full that, you know, there is so many people using the library sometimes you’ll see them like kind of sitting on the floor, on the little bench with their computer like a desk and they’re just, you know, I guess they just need the space.
Adrienne Van Lare: Right.
Lauren Martino: They just need the room. So I’m thinking of specific patrons I’ve had. What do you say to somebody who basically comes to you and they’re like, “I need a job? I need a job. I need any job. It doesn’t matter what job.”
Adrienne Van Lare: Okay. If I’m someone who is desperately looking for a job, any job, there are so many resources that we offer to help with that. In terms of programs, there are so many programs that we’re offering right now. We’re doing a career reentry seminar series at the Rockville Library. This is a seminar series for women who are reentering the workforce after being away for a while.
Lauren Martino: Oh, that is interesting.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yup. That is a – it is a great series. And so that is one of the great programs that we’re doing now. We’re doing a LinkedIn boot camp at the Davis Library on October 21st. We also on October 24th, this is a very popular program that we’ve been running, How to Apply for Jobs with Montgomery County. This is great because it is actually presented or done by Montgomery County HR specialists. So you can get these sort of insider tips on what to do and not to do if you want to get your application noticed.
Lauren Martino: That is nice. When is that again? Tell me.
Adrienne Van Lare: That is on October 24th at the Twinbrook Library.
Lauren Martino: Okay. So the next person who comes in and says, “Are you hiring at Silver Spring,” that is where I’m going to send them.
Julie Dina: Send them to Twinbrook.
Lauren Martino: Yeah. I’m sending them to Twinbrook October 24th.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yup. There are also a number of online courses that we offer. These are six-week courses that are instructor-led and there are online courses such as12 steps to a successful job search. And there is also a resume writing workshop that will walk you through the steps to a powerful resume. So those are some good programs that we offer.
In terms of resources, right from our website, there is a wealth of information on jobs and careers. There are links directly to local and national job listings. You can link to the Maryland Workforce Exchange which is a job board, an online job board with a lot of good opportunities listed. There is the Maryland State Jobs Board, USA Jobs of course which is the federal government job site. There are resume builders, online resume builders. So if you need help creating a resume or a cover letter, you can use these resume builders that you can access from our website to create a resume. Of course books, tons of job hunting books.
And then we also have Worksource Montgomery who is a great partner of ours. They are the Montgomery County workforce body and they run two American job centers, one in Germantown and the other in Wheaton.
Also if you’re job hunting, take advantage of the computers that are available for public use at all of the MCPL locations. And of course there is Wi-Fi access also at all of our locations. And a few locations are now offering laptops that can be borrowed in the branch. This is only at select locations so check the website. Those are just some resources.
Julie Dina: Some, that sounds like a lot.
Adrienne Van Lare: Just a few.
Julie Dina: Just to mention a few. Now tell me, how do you determine the location, time, type of services, programs or, you know, how do you decide which workshop to offer the community?
Adrienne Van Lare: One thing we try to do at MCPL is to tailor programs and services for, you know, the communities where we have 21 different branches in the communities and for each branch differ. So we try to work closely with the branch staff and usually they’ll let us know what programs would appeal to their community and their demographic and we work with information that we’re given from, you know, by the branch staff.
Lauren Martino: Can you tell us a little bit more about we have a recent program that just started up that – oh, actually, awards high school diplomas. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? I had a lot of people interested in the branch and I just really like to know some more –.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yeah. It is a great program. It is the Career Online High School Program that we launched last June. It is a combination career and certificate course so that students graduate not only with a high school diploma but also with a career certificate in one of eight different career areas. And they get to choose which career area.
Lauren Martino: Can you – like what are some examples of some of the career areas?
Adrienne Van Lare: Sure. So there is a retail and customer service option, homeland security which would be ideal for someone who is interested in pursuing a job as a baggage screener let’s say. There is a certified protection officer option, good for someone who wants to work in security. Child care and education is another one –
Lauren Martino: Oh, that is a good one.
Adrienne Van Lare: – that prepares folks for the child development associate certification. Food and customer service skills ideal for someone in the hospitality field. Office management, transportation services. And if none of these specific areas appeal to individuals, they can go with the general career preparation option.
So it is a wonderful program that is completely free. It is – there is no cost to the student. They don’t even have to pay for books, and they work at their own pace. So they can – if they have a full-time job, they can come home and, you know, if midnight is the only time that they have to, you know, devout to studies, well, that is – you know, that is fine with this type of program because they can log in from anywhere anytime to do their studies. And it is exciting. We’ve already had four students graduate in the program.
Lauren Martino: Really?
Adrienne Van Lare: Yes.
Lauren Martino: Wow.
Adrienne Van Lare: Very exciting. Three of the four graduates have gone on or have reached out to Montgomery College to continue their education at Montgomery College.
Lauren Martino: Wow.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yes. So that is great.
Lauren Martino: That is awesome.
Adrienne Van Lare: It is a great program.
Julie Dina: Just so you know, word got out that we would have you as a guest today and I actually got a question that someone would like me to ask you. If I’m a recent immigrant and can’t get work in my field of expertise, what advice do you have for me? You’re the only one who can answer this, Adrienne.
Adrienne Van Lare: Well, I don’t know that I’m in a position to give advice but we do work very closely with a wonderful organization called Upwardly Global. They help work authorized immigrants to find work in the fields that they we were working in before they came to the US, so. And they have a good track record. They actually have helped thousands of foreign trained professionals find work in their fields in the US.
Lauren Martino: So can you tell us a little bit about what is coming down the pipe? What are you excited about what else that we haven’t talked about in the future that you’re working on?
Adrienne Van Lare: In terms of sort of where we’re going in the future, we’re going to be rolling out a lot more of these programs and expanding them to a lot more branches. So we’re excited about that. We are working on a partnership now with Worksource Montgomery to do job clinics –
Lauren Martino: Really?
Adrienne Van Lare: – at some of the branch locations. Yes.
Lauren Martino: Wow.
Adrienne Van Lare: So we’re excited about. At the Rockville Library, we have two workforce programs that I’d like to mention, Networking 101 for a Successful Job Search. That is on November 7th. And then on November 14th, Creating Your Own Personal Board of Directors. And that should be –.
Lauren Martino: What? How does that work?
Adrienne Van Lare: Yeah. That is a fun topic. So we’re no longer talking about, you know, having a mentor these days. Now we talk about having a whole network to help with your job search. So yeah.
Lauren Martino: So one is not enough. You need –.
Adrienne Van Lare: One is not enough. Exactly. Now, you need a network or your own personal board of directors. And so this workshop will tell us all how to go about recruiting people to join our network and help us as we look to change careers or find jobs, so.
Lauren Martino: Yeah. Think about everything I’ve had to look for a job and it is always like, “Okay, I need this many references.” And preferably they’re not from my current job because I don’t necessarily want to let them know.
Adrienne Van Lare: You don’t want to let them to know. Right.
Lauren Martino: So I’ve got to, you know, reach way, way back and then it is always tough. I wonder if that – does your board of directors help with that do you think?
Adrienne Van Lare: Probably, probably. You know, you have a ready-made team or network that you can, you know, approach in situations like this.
Lauren Martino: Are you on anyone’s board of directors?
Adrienne Van Lare: I’m not.
Lauren Martino: No?
Adrienne Van Lare: I’m not.
Julie Dina: You mean you’re not yet.
Lauren Martino: You’re not yet.
Adrienne Van Lare: I’m not yet.
Lauren Martino: You can be a part of mine.
Julie Dina: I know.
Adrienne Van Lare: You know, I’ll have to go this workshop and figure out and learn all about that.
Lauren Martino: Let’s see. I’m thinking of patrons I’ve had in the past. I know there was one guy like long time ago, not in Montgomery County, but he came day after day and he brought his three-year-old and he let his three-year-old run rampant around the library while he look at Facebook and I hope he is not listening. But, you know, this went on. It went on and went on and went on for like six months. And then one day he stopped coming. And he came back like three months later and he is like, “Oh, yeah, I got a job.”
Adrienne Van Lare: Right.
Lauren Martino: It is amazing just the difference that – I mean, you know, we see them at certain point, you know, certain point in their life.
Adrienne Van Lare: Right.
Lauren Martino: But it is amazing the difference that you can be making to people with what you’re doing.
Adrienne Van Lare: Right, right. It is – you know, it improves their quality of life, their standard of living, and strengthens communities. So we want people to be employed.
Lauren Martino: Yes.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yes.
Lauren Martino: Is there any like success stories you can think of that you’re particularly proud of?
Adrienne Van Lare: We get a lot of positive feedback from folks who attend our workshops. We have had someone who attended the How to Apply for Jobs with Montgomery County Government tell us that he had applied for several jobs and after the workshop, he said, “Now, I know why none of my applications were accepted.”
Lauren Martino: Really.
Adrienne Van Lare: “Thank you so much. I know the mistake that I’ve been making.” Exactly.
Julie Dina: Sounds great, Adrienne. All the information you’ve given us today, we really appreciate it. But –.
Lauren Martino: We have one more question.
Julie Dina: Yes. Before you leave, before we wrap this up, we want to know, could you tell us a book you’ve enjoyed recently?
Adrienne Van Lare: Sure. I can tell you about the two books that I’m reading presently. One is Quiet: the Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking. And that is by Susan Cain. And it is an interesting book. She challenges the extrovert ideal in the context of business leadership in today’s workplace, and the bias that she feels western culture has toward extroverts and how we consider it a virtue to be gregarious and comfortable in the spotlight. So that is one of the books that I’m reading.
The other is Chimamanda Adichie’s book, Americanah. And that – I’m enjoying that also immensely. I enjoy books about people that are straddling two cultures because I’m always drawn to books where, you know, you have people having to adapt to different cultural environments.
Julie Dina: Well, we definitely want to thank you. You were such a – you were full of information. And as much as I work with you daily, you’ve even given me new information today and I’m sure our audience are grateful for it.
Lauren Martino: I’m happy to take a lot of these back to the branch.
Julie Dina: Oh, yeah, I can’t wait.
Lauren Martino: Yeah.
Adrienne Van Lare: Yeah. Well, great. That is good to know that there is – I’ve given you – I’ve armed with you new information so.
Lauren Martino: And now, a brief message about MCPL services and resources.
Febe Huezo: Hey, did you know a library card is a must have in your wallet? With the library card, you can download books, learn a new language and my favorite, download music. Visit a nearby branch and get your library card today so the next time someone ask you what is in your wallet, you can show them your MCPL card.
Lauren Martino: Now, back to your program.
Julie Dina: Thank you so much Adrienne for joining us today. Let’s keep the conversation going by following us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. Also, please review and rate us on iTunes. We’ll love to know what you think. Thank you once again for listening to our conversation today. See you again next time.
Recording Date: September 29, 2017
Hosts: Julie Dina and Lauren Martino
Episode Summary: We talk with MCPL's Workforce and Business Development Program Specialist Adrienne Van Lare about how MCPL can help you find a job or advance your career. MCPL's Workforce Development program just won an Honorable Mention Award from the Urban Libraries Council Innovations Initiative.
Guest: Adrienne Van Lare
Featured MCPL Resource: Your MCPL library card is the key to borrowing books, accessing e-books, downloading music, and much more. Register for a card today!
Books Mentioned During this Episode:
Americanah by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: A young woman immigrates from Nigeria to America, but finds her new life is not what she expected.
Quiet: the Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain: How society's bias toward extroversion undervalues and masks the value of those who prefer listening to speaking and reading to partying.
MCPL Resources Mentioned During this Episode:
Career Events at MCPL: An up to date list of upcoming career event at MCPL branches.
Career Online High School: Online program for earning an accredited high school diploma and career certificate.
Gale Courses: Free online courses and career training. Covers a variety of topics including accounting, computers applications, healthcare, legal, personal development, teaching, and writing.
MCPL's Jobs / Careers Guide: MCPL's jobs & careers website includes links to job search sites, training databases, online college and professional test prep material, career events at MCPL branches, resume and cover letter writing aids, and more.
Other Resources Mentioned During this Episode:
Maryland Workforce Exchange: The state of Maryland's website for residents looking for jobs, employers looking for workers, and students and researchers looking for state labor market information.
Upwardly Global: A nonprofit organization that helps immigrants rebuild their careers and find jobs in their professional fields.
USA Jobs: The US Federal Government's official job search site.
Worksource Montgomery: A Montgomery County nonprofit whose mission is to meet the needs of strategic industries to attract workers and the needs of the underemployed and unemployed to find career paths with sustainable wages.
Adrienne Miles Holderbaum (producer): Welcome to Library Matters, the Montgomery County Public Libraries’ podcast.
Julie Dina: Welcome to Montgomery County Public Libraries’ Library Matters podcast. I’m Julie Dina, one of the new hosts along with Lauren Martino and David Payne. In this episode, Lauren and David enjoy a lively discussion about Game of Thrones with two staff members who are fans of the books and show. We have a bonus feature at the end. A brief talk with Acting Director, Anita Vassallo, another Game of Thrones fan who couldn't make the main recording, but didn't want to be left out of the fun.
David Payne: Welcome to Library Matters with your host Lauren Martino.
Lauren Martino: Hello.
David Payne: And myself David Payne. Today we’ll be talking about a fantasy epic that has become a cultural phenomenon since it first appeared in print over two decades ago taking place in settings where magic joints and dragons exist. You may be forgiven for thinking we are referring to Harry Potter. It is in fact Game of Thrones that we will be discussing a world that began with the publication of George Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series in the mid 1990s and has continued with his subsequent adaptation into a fantasy drama series on television, which has attracted record viewing figures all over the world.
Here to tell us all about the intriguing world of Game of Thrones, I'm very pleased to welcome two MCPL staff members who come to claused as Game of Thrones devotees Susan Moritz and Angelica Rengifo. Before we go any further however, as we delve deeply into the Game of Thrones world, please note there will be spoilers in this conversation. If you're not up-to-date on Game of Thrones and wish to avoid spoilers, do come back to us after you’ve caught up to the most recent Game of Thrones episodes. So welcome Susan and Angelica.
Susan Moritz: Hello.
Angelica Rengifo: Hello, thank you.
Lauren Martino: So David and I have never seen any Game of Thrones shows or read any of the books. So how would you describe this world and why should we be interested?
Susan Moritz: Well, it’s sort of hard to – it’s so such a vast and exciting world that’s hard to break it down into one little – [Multiple Speakers].
Lauren Martino: Come on in 30 seconds.
Susan Moritz: In 30 seconds what can I say? So I guess I want to say that it was that it’s like a medieval fantasy and its set in the fictional land of Westeros and there are seven kingdoms that are ruled by one king, exactly.
Lauren Martino: One king to rule them all.
Susan Moritz: One king to rule them all, exactly, exactly very much like Lord of the Rings-esc. And it’s sort of what happens when the king is accidently killed during a boar hunting accident, but he is really murdered of course.
Lauren Martino: Freak boar hunting accident.
Susan Moritz: Freak boar hunting accident, exactly, exactly. How would that have ever happened? You know, so of course, it sends this fragile piece that sort of kept these seven sort of separate kingdoms together basically falls apart. And vast chaos and everyone decides that they want to be king and who wants to sit in the iron throne, do you think that’s right Angelica, are there other things that I missed?
Angelica Rengifo: I’ll say that definitely it looks very medieval.
Susan Moritz: Yes.
Angelica Rengifo: It’s fantasy. We have dragons, we have magic, we have dead people that come back to life.
Susan Moritz: Yes, White Walkers exactly.
Angelica Rengifo: No, and also like for example the Dondarrion that is brought back to life by Thoros of Myr. We also have a lot of sex, a lot of backstabbing, we had a politics and a lot of complicatid family ties.
David Payne: Sounds like you’re ever things is there.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes.
Lauren Martino: Downton Abbey?
Susan Moritz: Well, I think it was funny like I watching the show until like the very last I think it was the very last episode or the second to last episode of the season I sort of didn't realize it had this sort of fantasy element to it. And it just sort of looked I mean, even though it was set in a fictional fantasy world it sort of just looked very medieval, very King Arthur-esc kind of time period.
Angelica Rengifo: And the big bull have happened.
Susan Moritz: But then these dragons get hatched.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes,
Susan Moritz: And there was like wait, there is dragons here. So then I was like, wait, I think this is a little bit more even more fantasy, magic kind of stuff that I was thinking it would be as.
David Payne: So do you think one has to have a sense of or appreciation of history to enjoy the series or does it not matter?
Susan Moritz: I don’t think it matters, I mean, I –.
Angelica Rengifo: No, we can say – I can say from personal experience I have never been into fantasy. I have never been into Harry Potter or anything like that until I started watching and reading A Song of Ice and Fire.
Susan Moritz: Well, this is perfect because I have been a fan of you know historically fiction and history and fantasy like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. So I think this is great. It shows that you can like and no matter you feel like this if your thing or not.
Angelica Rengifo: I’m definitely into history and I love my favorite movies have like Trilogy have been the Lord of the Rings, but I’d never like Harry Potter. And this show, even the TV show, it's really great and the production is so great.
Lauren Martino: Why do you think it has attracted such a wide fan base? What makes it appealing to fans of so many different completely different people that all like the same thing?
Susan Moritz: I would say that sort of my two criteria for any like great TV show or movie or books is it’s got to have a good plot and it has a great plot. It has these twists and these turns and I remember even after that I was hooked by the very first episode, some marginal TV show that takes you while to get into, but I was like this whole like plot twist at the end where you find out that the Queen is sleeping with her twin brother.
Lauren Martino: What?
Susan Moritz: And yes, exactly, exactly. And where the beloved Starks because I love the Stark family, you know, accidently one of the kids sees them and it’s like and her brothers like “the things I do for love” and pushes him out of the tower you think to his death. He winds up surviving, but you’re like, but it ends with him like falling out of the tower and you’re like, oh, my god, what’s going to happen next. So I think it’s got a great plot with these surprising twists and it just has great characters like you really like with the Starks you really love them.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes.
Susan Moritz: You’re just so invested what is going to happen and what’s going to happen next. Are they going to get justice? Are they going to get back together, they’re going as a unit as a family unit. And the other thing is there is characters that you hate so badly that you hope that something horrible, horrible, horrible happens to them.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes.
Susan Moritz: Yes, you hope that something horrible happen to them. And the one of the thing that I have to say about the characters too is just because you sometimes think you know them like there is definitely characters I love and characters I hate. But there is ones that you feel like that change like Jamie Lannister, I think we had talked about that about how starts off he is the one the brother of the Queen who pushes his kid. You think this is the most horrible guy ever. He is sleeping with his twin sister. He has pushed this little boy.
Angelica Rengifo: And he is full of himself. He is – he thinks he is entitled to everything, and he doesn’t care. He has no care for anybody besides his sister not even his father I mean, he is afraid of his father in some way or another. But I want to bring up the point that you said that you got hooked on the first episode of the show. I didn't.
Susan Moritz: Oh, you didn’t?
Angelica Rengifo: No.
Susan Moritz: Oh, how funny. How funny. I was totally hooked of that first episode.
Angelica Rengifo: No, it took me a while. I tried to watch the first episode three times and I couldn't get pass I don’t know it was too much.
David Payne: So what make you go back?
Angelica Rengifo: Just the fact that it was history and everybody was talking about it. And like yeah, it has a history and then I got into the books and also I didn’t know it like it was always present in my mind that I have to watch this, I have to watch this. And that’s what I tell everybody because that's what I experience when I get friends to like try to watch it I tell them, don't give up on the first and second episodes.
Lauren Martino: And that’s hard you have to stick with it.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes, push through because like that’s what happened to me. I had to push through and like actually sit down and say, I'm going to finish this first episode. I’m going to finish this second episode.
Susan Moritz: Well, there is definitely payoffs. There is definitely payoffs for sticking with the series like, these are like the characters like change like with Jamie like you hate him in the very beginning. The Queen’s brother like he is this horrible guy. And then he like he himself suffers a tragedy he is like in order to help out Brienne I mean his swordhand gets cut off. And he basically has to relearn how to like so of course this is very important, but you know, he totally got to be good and he has got these good qualities. And you've just totally in the first episode of written him off as this horrible murderer, that’s a horrible guy.
Angelica Rengifo: Because he has to learn to be him without being a fighter. That was his personality and his worth was that he was able – he was the best sword man in the kingdom. And when that his hand gets cut off he cannot put value on himself and does what he like almost dies when he was being brought to the, what was it?, back to south, yeah.
David Payne: So, you talked about the TV series. How would you compare it to the books I mean, having read the books and seen the show, which one do you, do you both prefer?
Susan Moritz: I like both, would you say that you like both too?
Angelica Rengifo: I like both because I like the books because he goes, George R. R. Martin, goes into so much detail describing the landscape, describing people, describing the thoughts of the characters. And also I like the show because you can put a face to the characters that you have been reading about. And the other thing is that like after season five they go on a different like a different direction than the books do.
Lauren Martino: Really so they diverge.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes. And there are a lot of plots like side plots that do not get the attention or not even mention on the TV show that you find on the books. Like for example, the Dorn plot with the sand, snakes, and the daughter of the King of Dorn it's a really great plot in the books. And on the TV show it’s a side plot is a – we are losing time watching this because it doesn't go anywhere.
Susan Moritz: I would totally agree with that and that’s exact same thing I was thinking about like there is this Kingdom of Dorn, one of the kingdoms. And then in the TV show it was like, oh, we’re going to include it and then it was like oh, no, wait, we've got so much, so much we got to go.
Lauren Martino: Back up.
Susan Moritz: We’ve got a range that. And exactly pack up exactly, exactly. And I like the way that I started with it too like I watched the first season. So they’re having – and then I read the books and I read all the way through. And so I was thinking that you know, it's like I already have these images in my head, this is this character, this is this. And you already had that sort of intro to it so you’re not like overwhelmed by detail or stuff with the books like who is this and what’s this again and you’re already sort of ready to jump on. But now since George R. R. Martin is not writing fast enough the show has gone past the books. So basically the show is now all we have now that you’re going to write all the books like that’s – that’s all you got left now.
David Payne: Has it become too complicated?
Angelica Rengifo: No, I like it. So like even the reading and the books are great, yeah.
Susan Moritz: Yeah, I don’t think it’s become too complicated, but I think it’s probably become too complicated for George R. R. Martin to write.
Lauren Martino: And one person is not enough anymore
Susan Moritz: Definitely, and it was like with his thing apparently he doesn’t, unlike I think JK Rowling, does not outline anything. So he just like, so his got it like 1000 page books. And so he just sort of like has this huge world with all these characters and it’s like then he used to write, write, write.
Angelica Rengifo: And he writes chapters. So each chapter is a character and it’s the point of view of the character. But I’ve heard I don't know if it's true that he has hired someone to get whatever he see his mind in draft.
Susan Moritz: Oh, my goodness. I love that.
David Payne: Well, I have to ask Game of Thrones was described to me as "Shakespeare's history plays with dragons”. Now I don’t know how familiar you are with Shakespeare’s history plays, but any thoughts on the comparison?
Angelica Rengifo: I do not agree with that.
Susan Moritz: You don’t.
Angelica Rengifo: I don’t.
Susan Moritz: I would totally say that I would agree. Yeah, do you want to do the con and then I’ll do the pro.
Angelica Rengifo: So I don't agree with that even though Shakespeare has written about Richard III and The Wars of the Roses it's still a play. He doesn't develop something new. He doesn't develop the characters. We don't know the depth of the characters. So I feel like he is about comparison and he is not fair to George R. R. Martin, because again we can go back to the fact that two of the plays by Shakespeare are based on kings that went through or where became kings after The Wars of the Roses. And A Song of Ice and Fire is based on The Wars of the Roses. And so, but it has more depth. You can definitely take sides.
Susan Moritz: Oh, definitely.
Angelica Rengifo: You cannot do that on a play. So I feel like no, I do not agree with that. I think that’s great.
Susan Moritz: Well, I didn't realize about The Wars of the Roses that does bring an interesting element into it. And I guess what I thinking of that Shakespeare like history of plays I was thinking of sort of the characters and sort of like sort of similarities kind of thing. And I was thinking in Henry V like one of my – one of the great lines as I and I’m pretty sure hope everything and hope I’ve got all my Shakespeare all coordinated my brain. But uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. And I feel about –.
Angelica Rengifo: You think.
Susan Moritz: Yes, yes and then in this show it has been uneasy for every single person even the king who was the King Robert Baratheon you know when the show starts the kings before them that his king –.
Lauren Martino: Before the freak boar hunting accident.
Susan Moritz: Before yeah, yeah, when there was the mad king before him that was burning people a lot. No, I mean, it’s been since then and anybody else who has come in it’s been very uneasy.
Angelica Rengifo: Very dead.
Susan Moritz: Yes and so I see, yes. So I see that I definitely see that. I also see with sort of Henry V that sort of like band of brothers, everybody together, I sort of see that and sort of in Jon Snow and Dany sort of the inspiration the people who follow them they're just so inspired by them and they’re really dedicated to sort of how Henry V was with that. I just see different things with different ones. On Henry IV, you know, overtook the throne from I think it was Richard II and about how like, it was the whole like divine right of kings, and this is this and even in this.
Angelica Rengifo: But in plays that you don’t get developed.
Susan Moritz: Well, that’s true.
Angelica Rengifo: That’s what I feel, but it’s not similar. They’re not similar because the characters do not get developed. You don't feel like they have personality. Everything that we know about the characters in Shakespeare plays is what we know from history. What we have read in other things, not from Shakespeare himself.
Susan Moritz: There is only so much room to expand to change what’s there.
Angelica Rengifo: Yeah.
Susan Moritz: Whereas George R. R. Martin has been whatever he wants to do.
Lauren Martino: Yeah.
Susan Moritz: Right, yeah they definitely doesn’t have the depth I would say you’re writing the characters and then with Shakespeare he was probably writing for Queen Elizabeth II. I want to make sure that everybody sort of hey, that’s her that came out looking pretty good and Richard III of course was not going to look good at all. Although, I hear conflicting reports about that how he was in the real life there so.
David Payne: It sounds like you both know your Shakespeare.
Susan Moritz: Yeah, well that’s good, yes.
David Payne: So a quick aside for initiated like Lauren and myself. What is the thought of Game of Thrones, what does that allude to?
Susan Moritz: I think it’s the Game of Thrones. I just think of the line that Cersei Lannister whose the Queen says to Ned Stark it’s like “when you play the Game of Thrones, you either win or you die.” So basically when you're trying to gain the throne you either going to win and you’re going to get on that, you’re going to get to on the iron throne. They got this iron throne with that’s basically melted of swords right from I think the people who they call bend the knee, you’re pledging your oath to you know your allegiance to this person. So they’ve got this like iron throne that you sit on which obviously looks very uncomfortable.
Angelica Rengifo: It was on parks and rec.
Susan Moritz: Oh, well, why is this, that’s right, that’s right.
Lauren Martino: She gave Ben his own Iron Throne. It was this big, that was the best present he ever got in the whole world that is also I’ve tried.
Susan Moritz: No, no, no and that’s I totally forgot about that and you totally reminded me of about I think I heard that the Queen, the current Queen actually got to visit the set and of course they were like oh, do you want to go sit on. And she is like oh, no, no. And I was like smart lady, I can do imagine –.
Lauren Martino: Don’t allow yourself with that.
Susan Moritz: Exactly, exactly.
Angelica Rengifo: And also now that you bring up the throne prequels books that came before song of Ice and Fire there is a King, a Targaryen, that used to sit on the throne and he will get cut because again it’s made of real swords. It’s not just like not swords that are not going to cut your or whatever.
Susan Moritz: So it’s uneasy the bum that sits on the iron throne, not just head with the crown there so.
Lauren Martino: Exactly. So now, you’ve peaked my interest MCPL has all of these items I can go back to my branch and I can either order the season one or I can order the audio book or I can order the print book
Angelica Rengifo: or download the audiobook.
Lauren Martino: Or download the electronic audiobook. So which would you recommend, what should I go do?
Angelica Rengifo: Oh, I prefer you to read.
Lauren Martino: To read the actual book.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes.
Lauren Martino: Do the book and not the TV show and not the audio book.
Angelica Rengifo: Yeah, I’ll prefer the story maybe for someone who does not have an idea of it like Susan said, watch the show so you know who are the characters and you have an idea of who is who and where they are and where they come from and you can put a face when you.
Lauren Martino: Quick introduction.
Angelica Rengifo: Yeah.
Susan Moritz: Yeah, and I think it’s great too if you’re not too much into like the sex and the violence and stuff. Having watched the first season and then read through all the books I was prepared for like seasons two through I guess five about anything bad that was coming up. So I sort of knew I was like okay, I’m going to go this scene is coming up in the show. I’m going to go to the kitchen. I’m going back and I’ll be little back right here. So that to me was very helpful knowing it was coming down the pike there. One of the funniest things I think about it is like there is a huge character death. I mean, when you first see it, you’re just like oh, Ned Stark. He is this Sean Bean because I love Lord of the Rings and Sean Bean was in there.
Lauren Martino: Oh Sean Bean.
Susan Moritz: Yes.
Lauren Martino: Sean Bean dies?
Angelica Regifo: Yes and like in every movie.
Lauren Martino: Yes, I know, I know.
Susan Moritz: Because it was like the second to last episodes of season one. And I was like oh, no, at the last minute no, no, no.
Angelica Rengifo: So and then this is the third season, second season when Catelyn Stark dies and Robb Stark and you’re like.
Susan Moritz: Yeah, The Big Red Wedding. And what I loved about that was like so I knew it was coming.
Lauren Martino: The Big Red Wedding.
Angelica Rengifo: No, it’s The Red Wedding.
Lauren Martino: Because everyone dies?
Susan Martino: Two of the main characters you love die. And you think they're all okay, because there is just the guest rights. You come in. You’ve eaten from, if I’ve come to your home and you fed me some food that I'm okay, but it didn't and they turned on them and went up killing them. And if you need a laugh they have YouTube videos of people who knew what was coming and videotape the people around them who are watching.
Angelica Rengifo: Yes, I’ve watched those on YouTube. It’s really how people like cry.
Susan Moritz: Yeah, and it was one of those things like especially starting with Ned Stark’s death like you had said like you brought these books so long ago. Not long ago 90s wasn’t that long ago right, but because he wrote them so long ago that now that people had been getting into it through the series. They’ve been watching like what, you’ve killed off this character. And so you know he is like I wrote that so long ago. And he got like I think stuff that that he upset, fans were upset back then. But now it’s like this whole resurgence of people who are like what?
Lauren Martino: What did you do this for?
Susan Moritz: Exactly, exactly.
David Payne: So we determine that a lot of people are dying.
Susan Moritz: Yes.
David Payne: And a show that has a reputation for gratuitous violence, is that reputation merited do you think? What makes it essential for the story it’s telling?
Susan Moritz: I sort of think it feels like it feels essential in the sense that and I'm not a fan of torture and other things that have happened. But if the characters that either do it or they do it themselves or either the actors or that they are the ones that order something to be done you just hate them and despise them so much that you’re just compelled that justice must be served. And something horrible must happen to these people and that’s how I feel about and there is like you know.
Angelica Rengifo: I want to just say about it and I wanted to bring up the fact that good people also get torture.
Susan Moritz: Yes.
Angelica Regifo: And good people get killed. The good ones die, the bad ones die and you’re sad. But then you’re happy because the bad ones die. And one of the best things ever is when Joffrey died.
Lauren Martino: Jeffrey?
Angelica Rengifo: Joffrey
Susan Moritz: And Ramsay Bolton? Oh, those I feel like the two are like the worst people. Although Petyr Baelish also but.
Angelica Rengifo: Oh, yes, Baelish was also gratifying to see him die.
David Payne: So it’s like a whole cast of characters.
Susan Moritz: And I think that’s why this season, the last season has been just so gratifying is that finally the tables you feel have turned and we’re like finding the characters you love or getting some justice and getting some vengeance. It has been like oh –.
Angelica Rengifo: The Starks are back together.
Susan Moritz: Yes.
Angelica Rengifo: And the pack is to together and pack together.
Susan Moritz: Yeah.
Angelica Rengifo: They’re going to survive, hopefully all of them.
Susan Moritz: Yes, definitely. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives when winter comes.
Lauren Martino: So if you have seen all the TV shows, and you have read all of the books and there you’ve got so much free time on your hands now that you're all done with everything and waiting for the next season or waiting for the next book, what do you suggest like is there anything that's also good along the same lines that can fill the void in your life until the next thing comes out?
Susan Moritz: No.
Angelica Rengifo: Yet I will say watch them again, rate them again, read other George R. R. Martin books. Because he writes in such a way that I haven't seen somebody else write. He is so much. I mean, I'm into a lot of detail so I’d like that about him and I like his books because of it. So I will say read the books again, watch the TV show again.
Susan Moritz: And like you get those from the libraries and I love when the library started to get the TV shows in the catalog and yeah, I can finally binge watch all these shows that I want to watch. But some good ones, I would suggest that we have in our collection that people can like place holds on and check out on The Borgias that was really good. I like that TV series. The Tudors, I mean that sort of gets that sort of medieval kind of element. Supernatural.
I’ve mean to watch Empire that's very like backstabbing like who's on top you know, kind of thing power grabbing. I’m trying to think what and there are some other things. And one of the Philippa Gregory writes a lot of you know historical fiction, the Shakespeare plays, Shakespeare movies and there was something as oh, but I love that Angelica mentioned that some people might not know that he has written these sort of like little short prequel novellas, George R. R. Martin.
Lauren Martino: Oh!
Susan Moritz: So you can get like sort of these little like sort of prequel stories. And he has them hidden in these super thick short story compilations. So you can and I’ve definitely I’ve checked them out of the librar before. And so yes you can get those. Other things I think we’ve got like the Wit of Tyrion Lannister, Wit and Wisdom of Tyrion Lannister. So we’ve got these all other, these other Game of Thrones books that if you’ve read the books, but we got these other companion kind of books that are cool too.
David Payne: So there is life after Game of Thrones.
Susan Moritz: Yes, yes, yes, we hope so. I have one more season and then we hope there is.
David Payne: On MCPL we’re happy to find those resources for you. Well, Susan and Angelica thank you both very much indeed.
Julie Dina: And now a brief message about MCPL services and resources.
Febe Huezo: Looking for your next favorite book, MCPL can help. Fill out or what do I check out next online form and tell us what you like to read. You can find the link to the service on our homepage. We will email you a list of three to five books that our librarians have chosen just for you. Happy reading.
Julie Dina: Hi, I'm Julie Dina, one of the new hosts for Library Matters. And here with me is Anita Vassallo, our new Acting Director. Anita couldn't make the main recording for our Game of Thrones episode, but knowing that she is such a great fan we are making this special segment just to have her here on this show. So here we are. Welcome Anita and thanks for being here with us.
Anita Vassallo: Thank you Julie. I am a big Game of Thrones fans so I'm really excited that I was invited to be here with this little extra piece for the Game of Thrones podcast.
Julie Dina: So why don’t you just tell us, what is compelling about Game of Thrones?
Anita Vassallo: So I think for both the books and the TV show in the past seasons the most compelling part is the intricacy of the plot and the slow and careful development of all of the characters. You currently dive way into this world then the people had inhabited. And then of course there is the anyone can die at any time philosophy. So Game of Thrones is famous for chopping the heads off of major characters in a most unexpected fashion and just moving on from there.
So although I really love the TV show and have watched every single episodes since the day it premiered I do miss now the pacing from the first seasons like maybe the first four or five seasons where it was very careful of how they were developing everything. And now because we just finished the second to last season and there are only six episodes left everything has really speeded up and sometimes you're wondering how did they get from there to that, but you just have to kind of forget about that part.
Julie Dina: You mentioned something about characters. So what particular character would you say your most like?
Anita Vassallo: Well, I'm not sure I’m really most like any of them, but the one I admired the most is Lady Olenna Tyrell. And since you haven’t watched this show you don’t know who she is.
Julie Dina: I don’t.
Anita Vassallo: But she is the matriarch of the Tyrell family who lives at Highgarden that's their seat so she is my idol. She is very funny and sarcastic. She is kind of like the grandmother in Downton Abbey. So she can toss off these quips and cut people down to size. And this past season she was basically executed, but she was still throwing off the quips right before her death. And after she drank poison that was given to her by Jaime Lannister she still managed to twist the knife into him one more time. So she is great, great gosh.
Julie Dina: Well, since you talk so much about her, if you could invite one particular character to a dinner or if you can invite them and take them somewhere who amongst all these characters that you love would you be?
Anita Vassallo: Well, I did think about this because I knew this was a question and it comes up to a choice between Tyrion Lannister and Tyrion would be great to take out because he would have a lot to say about all of the behind-the-scenes double-dealing and his crazy family. And he would also probably be a lot of fun because he likes to drink and have a good time. So for Tyrion we’d have to go out to a really nice wine bar because he loves his wine. But the other person that I think will be really interesting to take would be Maester Aemon. And Maester Aemon is the 100-year-old blind Maester of the Night's Watch. Look at Julie looking at me. But in reality he was a Targaryen prince. He was the son or the uncle of I think of the Mad King, Aerys if I have that right. And if I don't have it right we’ll find out about it in half minute. So he refused the crown and he has been with the Night's Watch for many, many years and think of all the stories that he could tell.
Julie Dina: So Anita I can see the glow in your eyes when you talk about all these different characters and you’re talking about this show. Can you tell me one most surprising thing about Game of Thrones?
Anita Vassallo: Yes, so I think the most surprising thing about Game of Thrones both George R.R. Martin books and the television show is how people who really don't love fantasy and have probably never read a fantasy book or so enthralled with it now even if they came to through in TV show they go back and read the books or they listen to the books on audio so they don’t really know anything about fantasy. They don't know about Lord of the Rings or the Narnia books, but they just love this and they get so obsessed and maybe it's the sex and violence.
Julie Dina: It could be, it could be that gets a lot of people. So I do know that you’re a great fan of horses and you do own a couple of them.
Anita Vassallo: Yes, we have horses at home so you know if you’re a fan I guess that's one way of putting it. But I know that horses are really important in Game of Thrones because the nearest Targaryen of course is the Khaleesi of the Dothraki. Look at Julie’s face.
Julie Dina: Yes, and all these things.
Anita Vassallo: And they are basically the horse lords, the lords of the grass, the sea. So horses are extremely important in their culture. Their main God is the Great Stallion and when the nearest Targaryen becomes pregnant of course she has to eat a Stallion's heart and that's a very graphic scene shown on this show. So yeah, I mean and it’s fun to watch all the beautiful horses and the second to last or third to last episode this season was a great battle scene with all these horse warriors attacking some infantry and they came roaring in on their horses and they stood up on their backs with their bows and arrows and it was really cool.
Julie Dina: Well, I’ve got to say thank you so much Anita for joining us for this segment. Let’s keep this conversation going by following us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast from. Also, please review and rate us on iTunes. We love to know what you're thinking. Once again, I want to thank all our listeners for joining on to this conversation today and see you next time.
Spoilers Are Coming! This episode has more Game of Throne book and television series spoilers than you can shake a sword at.
Recording Date: September 20, 2017
Episode Summary: Winter is coming. At least that's what the Game of Thrones fans among our staff say. We invited a few such fans onto the podcast to share their enthusiasm for the immensely popular Game of Thrones books and television series.
Note: Library Matters has new hosts! You'll hear 2 of our new hosts, Davis Library Branch Manager David Payne and Silver Spring Librarian Lauren Martino during the main part of the episode. Our third host, Outreach Associate Julie Dina, introduces this episode and returns at the end to talk with our Acting Director, Anita Vassallo, who couldn't make the main recording session, but is a big Game of Thrones fan and didn't want to miss out on the fun.
Susan Moritz, Digital Strategies Program Manager
Angelica Rengifo, Outreach Associate
Anita Vassallo, Acting Director, MCPL
Featured MCPL Service: Tell us what you like to read by filling out our What Do I Check Out Next? form and receive 3-5 personalized book suggestions from your MCPL librarians.
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown." Henry IV, Part II, William Shakespeare
"Uneasy lies the bum that sits on the (Iron) Throne." Susan Moritz
"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die." Game of Thrones, Season 1, Episode 7, Cersei Lannister
Game of Thrones Books and Media Mentioned During This Episode:
Game of Thrones (television series): A dramatic, often violent cable television saga of the conflicts, alliances, and intrigue among noble families vying for control of or independence from the high kingship that rules over the 7 kingdoms.
George R.R. Martin: Have you finished the Song of Ice and Fire book series, but still want more? Try some of the other novels and short story collections George R.R. Martin has written or edited.
A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin: The epic fantasy book series upon which the Game of Thrones television series is based. The series currently consists of the following books -
Martin's fan eagerly, impatiently, await the next planned books in the series, The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.
Other Books and Media Mentioned During this Episode:
The Borgias (television series): A chronicle of the 16th century Borgia family's rise to power in the Roman Catholic Church.
Henry IV by William Shakespeare: A history play about King Henry IV of England and his struggles against internal unrest and Scottish invaders.
Henry V by William Shakespeare: A history play about King Henry V of England and his role in the Battle of Agincourt in France.
Philippa Gregory: The author of British historical fiction novels, many of which are set in the 16th century Tudor period.
Richard III by William Shakespeare: This history play depicts Richard III's rise to power and his short lived reign as king of England.
Supernatural (television series): A pair of brothers make their way through the world as monster hunters.
The Tudors (television series): The early years of King Henry VII's 16th century reign over England.
Adrienne Miles Holderbaum (producer): Welcome to Library Matters, the Montgomery County Public Libraries’ podcast.
David Watts: Hello and welcome to Library Matters. Today, we’re going to talk about Montgomery County Public Library resources and services for people with disabilities. From our monthly Talking Book Club at Rockville Memorial Library to the assistive technologies available in each branch, today we’ll discuss it all with Elizabeth Lang, Assistant Facilities and Accessibility Program Manager for MCPL. Welcome to the podcast, Elizabeth Lang.
Elizabeth Lang: I’m glad to be here.
David Watts: Take a moment and tell us a bit about yourself, what’s your background, and how did you become interested in library services for people with disabilities?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, my background is in social work, as well as in bookstores and libraries. In my past life, I was a social worker at a domestic violence shelter. And I found that to be very emotionally difficult and shifted over to working in bookstores.
When I was a manager in retail bookstores for, I want to say, about a decade, I was working in a Barnes & Noble, and saw a position posted for Talking Book & Braille Library. And I wound up working as a librarian and as the Assistant Director for Public Services at the Talking Book & Braille Library in Missouri for about a decade.
That service provided library materials to people who are blind or visually impaired or who had other print disabilities and couldn’t use standard printed materials from their local public library. I had never intended to go into the field of library services for people who have disabilities; I just kind of wound up there. And then moved to DC to take a position as a Branch Manager in 2013. And I worked for them until I came here last November. And with DC, I was both the Branch Manager and I managed their Center for Accessibility, which was one department at the Martin Luther King main branch. And the Center for Accessibility provided library services to patrons who had a wide range of disabilities.
In Missouri, I had been providing library service to people who had print disabilities, but at MLK and the Center for Accessibility was providing library service to any person who had any sort of disability that prevented them from using the standard services and materials available throughout the library. And I’ve just sort of been here ever since.
David Watts: Tell us about your new role at MCPL.
Elizabeth Lang: Okay. As you said, I am the Assistant Facilities and Accessibility Program Manager. That’s kind of a mouthful, and what it means is I spend about half of my time working on facilities issues, including our refresh projects where we’re renovating our branches, and then about half of my time is focused on providing services, library services to people who have disabilities.
So far as I know, it’s a unique position. I have not encountered any other library system or library that has a position that is really focused that uniquely on providing library services to people who have disabilities systemwide.
David Watts: Can you give us a brief description of the Americans with Disabilities Act, otherwise known as ADA, and how it impacts MCPL specifically?
Elizabeth Lang: Sure. The Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law in 1990 by President George H.W. Bush. The law prohibits discrimination, and guarantees that people who have disabilities have the same opportunities as everyone else has in employment, state and local government services, public accommodations, commercial facilities, and transportation.
The main part of the ADA that impacts MCPL is called the Title II Regulations. So those apply to state and local governments, specially. Title II protects qualified individuals with disabilities from discrimination on the basis of disability in services, programs, and activities that we provide. It also requires that newly constructed or altered government facilities be readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities.
So that means we have a responsibility to design all of our collections, our services, our programs and our facilities in a way that includes everyone. So nationally, about 12% of the population has some form of a disability, and, in Montgomery County, that number is roughly about 82,000 people.
So for those 82,000 folks, I would like to believe they all use the library. They’re the folks we’re concernin ourselves with and that I focus on making sure we’re doing a good job of serving.
David Watts: What traditional library resources and services does MCPL offer for people who have disabilities?
Elizabeth Lang: We have a pretty wide range of services and materials. So we have large print books, which most people have heard of, that can be used by folks who have visual impairments. We also have books on CD. We also do have a small selection of Braille Books at some of our libraries. We have a listing of local resources on our library services for People with Disabilities webpage. We have a Talking Book Group that meets every month that our Rockville location for people who love audiobooks. Two of our branches also have an accessibility center with work stations and resources that are dedicated to people who have disabilities.
David Watts: What are some of the new or innovative resources and services MCPL offers to residents with disabilities?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, every one of our branches now has an assistive technology workstation. One of our customers has called it the Cadillac of Assistive Technology workstations. It has screen reading software that’s called JAWS as well as enlarging software that’s called MAGic. Both of those are for use by people who have low vision and/or who are blind. It assists them in using the computer. So the workstation has a large monitor as well for somebody who has a visual impairment and needs the screen enlarged. It can get pretty big. That’s very nice.
It also, that workstation, contains something called the ClearView+ Speech desktop magnifier. Some people know this piece of equipment by the name CCTV, closed-circuit television is what it had been called in the past. But the one that we just put in is more than the sort of old-fashioned closed-circuit TV that would just show you an image of what you had laid on a tray. This when you lay your material on the tray, it can show that image on the screen. It has a very large screen. It also offers the option of reading aloud. So it will take – basically it takes a photograph of the item that you’ve placed on the tray, it will show it to you on the screen and then if you tap the screen, it will start reading the defined text areas that it has located out loud to you. It cannot be used by somebody who has no usable vision, but for someone who has a visual impairment or is legally blind, it can help them read much more easily than, you know, struggling with just using glasses, particularly for something that has very small print.
David Watts: What is the Maryland State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped, what resources and services does it offer that are different from what’s available in MCPL?
Elizabeth Lang: Good questions. The Maryland State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped is a state resource. It’s a library for people who have print disabilities. I was talking about the library where I had worked in Missouri, the Talking Book & Braille Library there, that was Missouri’s Talking Book & Braille Library. The Maryland State Library is the same thing. So every state has one.
David Watts: Right.
Elizabeth Lang: So the one that serves Maryland is based in Baltimore. And they are supported by the National Library Service, which is a division of the Library of Congress. So they provide audio books and audio book players to people who can’t use standard print materials. They mail it all out through the post office and it’s no charge to the patrons.
So to use that library, people have to be certified as having a disability that prevents them from using print. So they serve sort of a subset of perhaps the folks that we serve. But they do serve everybody throughout the state.
We, you know, we’re focused on Montgomery County and we will serve any customer within Montgomery County who is interested. So some of our patrons are probably the same people who are being served by the library in Baltimore. They can certainly take advantage of both libraries at the same time. And there was a little bit of overlap, as I’ve said, we do have some books on CD. That’s a slightly different format than the Maryland State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped provides to their customers. But they can use both of them.
David Watts: Tell us what happens of MCPL needs to make a change to be in compliance with ADA requirements but can’t make that change for some reason.
Elizabeth Lang: Sure. Well, it does happen occasionally that we will discover that some aspects of our buildings or our services are not in compliance with ADA regulations or requirements.
Sometimes it’s something that I or a staff person will discover and sometimes it’s something that’s brought to our attention by one of our customers. An example that comes to mind is I think it’s our Long Branch facility has a very steep road just outside. And the sidewalk there is very steep as well. And we’ve had the county’s ADA Compliance Office staff out there taking a look to see what can be done when we refresh that branch to bring us into compliance in all areas with ADA requirements.
Well, we can’t recut the road or redesign that sidewalk to the extent that would be required to bring it into line with the slope that is required for someone who’s using a wheelchair. It’s just a very steep street and sidewalk.
So the ADA does recognize that there are going to be instances like that where we simply can’t. We cannot cut into somebody else’s property. If something were going to be prohibitively expensive, if we had to, you know, raise a building and rebuild it completely, but we didn’t have the funding. Let’s say if the building had been built so long ago that nothing was in compliance, it recognizes that’s probably not possible.
So there’s some wording that it says that if something would result in a fundamental alteration in the nature of a service program or activity or in an undue financial or administrative burden, then we can’t be bunched to do whatever it is that’s been requested.
David Watts: How has MCPL incorporated ADA requirements, universal design, and the state of concerns of people with disabilities into the refresh of its branches? What are some specific examples?
Elizabeth Lang: The main focus of my position actually is to sort of pay attention to the intersection of all these things. So that’s a large question.
And I will sort of start with universal design. The idea behind universal design is that things can be designed to be usable by everyone, regardless of whether a person has a disability or not. There’s generally a way to set the built environment up to make it easy to use for everybody, including children.
So ADA requirements are sort of a piece of universal design. And the law does get pretty detailed about what you can and can’t do with regards to the size of your doorways and the width of your pathways and those sorts of things. But that’s sort of like a bare minimum expectation really of what will be done that will create an environment that is just—at its most basic level—usable by everyone.
Universal design takes that a step past that, obviously, and trying to design something that’s usable for everybody. So when we’re refreshing out branches, I pay attention to sort of all of those things. We have to make sure that we’re designing to the basic level of the ADA standards that are countertop to the right height that if we’re putting in a catalog computer for people to look books up on, that we don’t put it on a standing workstation only that’s really just usable by people who are literally standing. So if you’re using a walker or a wheelchair, then you wouldn’t reach it.
So we have whole range of things that I pay attention to with the refreshes. And how we know what the stated concerns are with regards to our customers with disabilities, I speak with folks who have disabilities almost every day about their library services and what they want.
We have several mechanisms for feedback on our website as well. And we have an advisory committee that is focused specifically on accessibility. And they meet I believe that it is quarterly, and talk with us about the existing branches, what they see, what they sort of have on their wishlist of ideally this is what this library would be like. And they have been walking the branches whose refreshes are coming up. They’ve been walking through those with us to point out very specific things like the slope on the sidewalk outside Long Branch that is too steep or a door where the pushbutton for the handicap entrance, you know, somebody using a wheelchair without that push button can’t get in. So they point those things out and make sure that we’re aware of them. We make a nice big list, and then when we go into design for that building, we incorporate as much of that as we can.
David Watts: There are a wide variety of disabilities from vision impairments to mobility challenges. How does MCPL address or accommodate them all?
Elizabeth Lang: There are a very wide variety of disabilities and we try to accommodate everyone. We want everyone to come to the library and be delighted. What we do is take a case-by-case basis, specifically when we have someone who has a concern, we will address that with the particular branch or staff person who has brought it to our attention.
There will be instances where people who have disabilities will have needs that conflict. One example that seems kind of outrageous but kind of made the rounds online as a “Did you know this actually happened?” Somebody who used seeing eye-dog, a guide dog, was attending an event, I honestly don’t remember which library, not in this area, and there was a person with a very, very, very severe asthma-related response to dogs and they both wanted to be in the same place and it became a point of great discussion whether the person with the guide dog was allowed to stay because that person is sort of impinging on another person’s ability to breath, which is no small issue, right?
David Watts: That’s a pretty severe disability.
Elizabeth Lang: It is.
David Watts: Yeah.
Elizabeth Lang: It is. So that’s an extreme example, but I have had people asked me, “What happens if person A wants something and that interferes with what person B needs?” So it does happen. Thankfully I’ve not encountered anything in our system yet. But again, we just take our customer’s needs on a case-by-case basis where we’re made aware that there’s something needed.
David Watts: How do you get input about what Montgomery County residents who have disabilities want and need from MCPL?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, I touched on this a little earlier. We, in addition to our online feedback and the feedback that we get from our branches directly from customers, again, we have our advisory committee. And in addition to the feedback that I get from them at our meetings, our formal meetings, I am in touch with them regularly to just bounce things off of them to ask their opinions, to get their guidance and their feedback on the things that we’re thinking about implementing or changing. And then we also – I have fairly close relationship with the ADA Compliance Office, the Montgomery County ADA Compliance Office. And they hear a lot more than we do directly from Montgomery County residents who have disabilities and specifically what they need. And that’s sort of a two-way feedback street with them as well.
David Watts: How does ADA influence architectural design in public spaces? How do you believe it will impact libraries of the future?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, as I’ve said, the ADA regulations do have sort of a basic set of kind of bare-bones guidelines as I think of them with regards to how physical spaces have to be designed to be accessible. Things like designs you’ve probably seen that have the wording and then the Braille underneath them perhaps next to a meeting room door, those kinds of guidelines.
They specify things like if you have something that protrudes from the wall, say a monitor, maybe a computer monitor or a display screen that if it’s more than four inches up from the wall, it has to be either over a certain height, I believe 70 inches or below 28, so that if I’m using a cane, I’m not caught unawares by something that’s sticking out from the wall. I might run into that with my shoulder or my head if that’s the only thing there. So ADA requires that if something is sticking out more than four inches and it’s within those 28 to 70 inches, I have to have something permanent underneath it, like a bench or a cabinet that someone who’s using a cane would be able to feel with the cane before they hit the protruding object.
So there are a lot of very small detailed requirements like that that influence the architecture of a building.
In the future, again, I think we’re going to move toward a more universal design as people become more and more aware of what is good for everyone. It’s really relatively easy to build to those things when you’re building a new facility. Older facilities are harder to sometimes sort of bring up to speed. But we haven’t encountered anything yet where there wasn’t something that we could do to make it better.
David Watts: How does the increase in the number of older Americans impact ADA services and resources?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, as you might guess, as our population ages, our ADA related services and resources will be in greater demand. I was looking at some information from the Pew Research Center this morning that was talking about this very thing. And it was seeing that as people age, they do become disabled. And that our largest group of people with disabilities nationwide are those who I believe it was 75 and older.
So of folks who have disabilities, about 25% of them never go online. You know, we talked a lot about how everybody is connected 24/7, but there are very large group of people who are not connected in that way. People with disabilities are also 20% less likely than somebody without disabilities to own a computer, a tablet, or a smartphone.
So again, we’re maybe looking at the need to increase more basic resources, print books, print magazines, print newspapers, or providing the technology for our customers to use because they don’t own it themselves. You know, helping them learn what those things are and connecting them in that way will be ever more important.
David Watts: How can we find out more about MCPL’s resources for people with disabilities?
Elizabeth Lang: Well, we have some good information on our website. We do have what’s called a LibGuide that is specifically filled with information about our services for people who have disabilities, and not only our services at the library but some countywide, I believe there are also statewide resources there for people to use on a variety of topics. They can always contact one of our branches and the librarians there can help them with any information needs that they have. It’s kind of what we specialize in or they can contact me directly. I’m at 240-777-0039. I’m happy to talk to anyone about their concerns, their needs, or any topic related to library services about people with disabilities.
David Watts: Elizabeth, we have this habit of asking our guest to tell us what they’re currently reading and is on their nightstand or what your favorite book is.
Elizabeth Lang: I could never pick a favorite book. So I’ll tell you what I’m reading right now. On my mother’s recommendation, I’m reading the A is for Alibi series which I had always been sort of aware of. A lot of people really love Sue Grafton’s writing. I had just never picked it up. But I just finished F is for Fugitive. And tonight, yeah, I will be starting G is for Gumshoe. It’s really great series, mystery, kind of –.
David Watts: It draws you.
Elizabeth Lang: It does. It does. They character is a great character. The main character Kinsey Millhone is the investigator. She is a private investigator who started as a policy officer and she is very quirky and kind of lovable in the end. I’m loving it. It’s fantastic. My mom made a great recommendation.
David Watts: Well, we want to thank you for being our guest today on Library Matters.
Elizabeth Lang: Thank you for having me.
David Watts: And for our audience, we want to keep the conversation going by following us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Pinterest. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast.
Also, please review and rate us on iTunes; we’d love to know what you think. Thank you for listening to our conversation today, and we’ll see you next time.
[Audio Ends] [0:24:44]
Recording Date: August 8, 2017
Episode Summary: Guest Elizabeth Lang discusses MCPL resources and services for people with disabilities, as well as MCPL's efforts to incorporate accessibility into all aspects of its operations.
Guest: Elizabeth Lang, Assistant Facilities and Accessibility Program Manager
MCPL Resources and Services Mentioned During this Episode:
MCPL's Accessibility Centers are located in our Rockville Memorial and Silver Spring branches
Accessibility Advisory Committee
Assistive Technology Workstations
MCPL Services for People with Disabilities
Rockville Memorial Library Talking Book Club
Other Resources and Services Mentioned During this Episode:
DC Center for Accessibility
Maryland State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
Montgomery County ADA Compliance Team
National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
Wolfner Talking Books & Braille Library in Jefferson City, Missouri
Books Mentioned During this Episode:
Kinsey Milhone mystery series (A Is for Alibi, etc.) by Sue Grafton
Other Items of Interest:
Adrienne Miles Holderbaum (Producer): Welcome to Library Matters, the Montgomery County Public Libraries’ podcast.
David Watts: Hello and welcome to Library Matters. Chances are if you’re a parent or maybe thinking of becoming one, you’ve read a parenting book or two. If you’re a father you may find it slightly challenging to find and connect to modern parenting books. If so, you’re in luck.
Today we have two guests, Fred Akuffo, the Library Assistant Supervisor at Long Branch Library, and Tom Palmer a library associate at Silver Spring Library. Welcome to the podcast Fred and Tom.
Tom Palmer: Thank you.
Fred Akuffo: Thanks for having us.
David Watts: Tell us a little bit about yourself, how old are your kids and what is your parenting style?
Fred Akuffo: Okay. My kids are 13 and 10. I’ll say my parenting style is a daily discovery. That’s what I like to call it. I like to see what new I can find out to make things great for my kids.
David Watts: Okay, Tom.
Tom Palmer: So my son Theo was born just about three months ago, so I’m very new to the whole parenting thing. So I’m not sure I have a style honestly. I’m on the lookout for one. But I would say, for my wife and I, just trying to do as much as we can as a team. You know, we each have our own roles during the day but when we’re home together you know, there’s a crying baby you know, trying to share the load you know, because we’re in this together and that’s – I think that’s the only approach that will keep us staying in this early part.
David Watts: What parenting books for dads have either of you read?
Tom Palmer: So I’m pretty early on in the game. So with a pregnant wife the last year and then a newborn, I’ve not been reading a ton. But one book I’ve been – I did read was The Birth Partner by Penny Simkin which is just so much information, almost overwhelmingly. But you know, I’m sure we’ll talk more about it, but it was very helpful to sort of go through – have someone go through the whole process, what might happen in different scenarios. So I did enjoy that one.
Fred Akuffo: For myself, I don’t really read a lot of the new books. I’m more of a parenting style off of more ancient reading. I use the Bible a lot at my home and I also use Aesop’s Fables. So I like using Aesop’s Fables because it deals with a lot of character issues and I think for growing kids, one thing we want to do is make sure that character is developed. I get a lot of input from that book. And then for the Bible, Bible gives us hope. So that’s another thing I like to make sure that my kids have instilled in their character is a sense of hope in life, because it goes this way, that way, it’s a rollercoaster sometimes, but if we have hope then we can maneuver.
But in case people hearing want some reading that’s newer. There’s suggested books like the Dad’s Playbook which is a coach telling about methods he used for his kids by Tom Limbert, Be Prepared by Gary Greenberg, Better Dads, Stronger Sons by Rick Johnson, and Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Meg Meeker. Also another book that I constantly read is the Boy Scout Handbook. It shows a lot of things that you can do with your kids to encourage them to be hard workers, encourage them to be creative, encourage them to be prepared. So I’d add that to the other two.
David Watts: Why did you guys pick those parenting books? Was it a gift or did you choose it on your own, or did someone suggest it to you?
Fred Akuffo: You know, for me, the Aesop’s Fable was a gift that at a very early age my mother gave it to me as a boy. And I’ve always been interested in what I’m going to do as a dad, even as a boy. So I’ve kind of been reading parenting books like all my life because I’ve always wanted to be a dad, you know. You know, I love my dad. My dad was – he didn’t speak much, he’s a tough guy but you know, he loved us, he worked hard for us. And so I always wanted to be in that position. But I wanted to maybe do a couple of things differently than he did. So I was always looking around to see what that would be, what I would change, what I would keep, and I use that to continue to look for different things and raise my own kids.
David Watts: Tom?
Tom Palmer: So for me, once I found out my wife was pregnant, it was sort of like, “Oh, my gosh, I need to learn everything I can about the whole process.” And actually our doula, the woman who taught us our birth class, she suggested The Birth Partner because she knew you know, and I wouldn’t say I was scared but I was you know, nervous a little bit about you know, when someone you love is going through a big thing, it’s scary. And she recommended this, just because it goes through all the scenarios, what might happen, and that was – I mean it’s overwhelming when you look at the amount of parenting books there are. So I kind of asked her and she suggested it and you know, it wasn’t a ton of time to read, but it did help and it made me feel a little bit more in control of the situation. First situation is by nature not – there’s not too much control over it.
David Watts: In your own experience what have you found to be the difference between the general parenting books and books geared specifically for dads?
Fred Akuffo: I’d say the length. Dad books seemed to be shorter, that I noticed, which is good for me because I tend to lose track if things get too long and if things get too wordy. I like advice to be short and concise. So when they’re too long, it can kind of take away from the reading for me.
Tom Palmer: And I would say the general difference I’ve noticed is it just goes in to you know, there are aspects of parenting unique to women and there are aspects unique to dads, or partners, or fathers. So you know, there is – for me, at least, there’s sort of that obvious bond with a mom and a child, you know, physically that she carries them for months at a time.
And so the books I was reading was helping me sort of you know, talk about you know, any problems, or not even problems, just bonding with the new child, you assume it happens instantly and it you know, doesn’t always work that way. So I think for books geared towards dads, it just sort of highlights a little bit more things that are unique to being a dad.
David Watts: What changes have you made after reading the particular books that you’ve spoken up?
Fred Akuffo: I think that call to response is something that I paid more attention to. As you read, you start to see that the things you do your children respond to. When they respond, they don’t always tell you what is going on inside you know, that you can see what’s happening to their emotions physically by looking at how their face is responding. And sometimes we need to pay attention to that I think and act, whereas, my dad wasn’t a touchy-feely guy. That’s something I think I had to learn through reading that.
When I see what I’ve said has upset my son, I can’t just keep talking and bearing down on just getting the information I want to get across. If he is getting upset in the midst of my talking to him, I might have to stop, give him a hug, let him know he is the coolest kid in the world to me and then see how we move forward you know, from there.
Tom Palmer: Again, it’s been three months for me so I’m not sure, you know? And I’m not really sure I’ve even thought about change. I’ve just been sort of doing what we can to get through the day.
But I would say in the books I’ve read, it always encourages sort of emotional honestly, just communicating with my wife. It’s always important, but especially with something that changes your life just drastically.
I was lucky enough to have a dad who is like that, but like you said with your father, even so if he was a little bit more stern than me. So I’ve tried to take it to the next level to sort of just you know, I don’t want to bug my wife everyday, but just to make sure we’re checking in with each other, everything okay you know. And that was stressed a lot in some of the books that I’ve read and that it makes sense and that’s how we’ve always sort of have you know, been in our relationship.
David Watts: What are some of the changes that you’ve seen in your spouses or even in your children in response to you and how you’re being led by these materials that you’re reading?
Tom Palmer: You know, it’s hard to say for me. But you know, in my family, we talked about everything all the time growing up, my wife not so much. So this whole, what I was just talking about, the emotion or you know, talking to each other, making sure we’re on the same page, it has come forth naturally to me than to her. But I think she has really embraced it, especially since our son has been born. And you know, I think I’ve you know, got myself a pad on the back. I’ve done a good job encouraging her to express herself because you know, it’s just – it’s a crazy time, lots of emotions. So yeah, I would say she has changed in that respect a little bit.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, I think for me it’s – we will see kind of thing right now. We made changes. They react to different changes. But I think I’m finding out what those changes means sometimes.
One day I got a note that was written by my daughter and she wrote down that you know, “I love my dad,” and one of the questions on this paper works, “What do you like about him?” And she said, “He makes changes,” or something like that, “even when he is in bad mood. As to say, even when he doesn’t want to do something, he’ll do something nice for you,” you know. So I found out you know, that they’re watching all the time, you know.
David Watts: All the time. All the time. Yeah, yeah.
Fred Akuffo: And they’re watching to see what my response is going to be. Are they going to see that you know, I’m stubbornly going to stand firm? Or are they going to see that you know, yeah, I might be firm but if the time calls for it, I might go ahead and make a decision to bend here and there if needed? So I thought that was good. One day when I saw that, they were encouraged by them.
David Watts: Do you find that you’re turning to parenting books to help you as they go through ages and stages? Tom, in your case, the newborn. Fred, in your case you know, adolescence, in tween, teen years.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah.
David Watts: Yeah.
Fred Akuffo: I find with the tween and teens, I’m turning more towards people who’ve gone through it, because I like to ask my peers, elders, people I look up to, people I respect, what they’ve gone through, and actually even people that have made terrible mistakes, I ask them too what they’ve gone through, and what they wished they have done differently. Or I listen sometimes when I hear people telling stories about what they think they’ve done well and what worked out well.
David Watts: Right.
Fred Akuffo: A lot of times I listen to people’s children also talk about their parents. And I wish – I hear their children say, “I wish I had done this. I wish I had done that.” So I listen to that too. So I’m always looking for something more; I’m always looking to discover something. So my reading has gone down in terms of the parenting books. I definitely keep trying to glean from others.
Tom Palmer: And I would agree with you in that. There’s no one source you know, I go to for advice or you know, information. I think when parenting books can be helpful is you know, at least when my wife is pregnant, certain terms I just never heard of, I’m looking that up.
But then like you said, I go to my family for advice you know, ask friends, anyone. I’m no expert; I’m open to advice. And then you know, we take, my wife and I take that information and we make the decision we think is best if there is a decision to be made. But yeah, I would say a combination of books, internet, and then just asking my parents, my in-laws, my sisters who have all been parents much longer than me.
David Watts: In each of your books, certainly there was that that you found that you agreed with, but were there any concepts or things discussed that you didn’t agree with? And what did you do with that information?
Tom Palmer: I don’t know if I so much disagreed with things so much as I think I got to the point where there is a little bit of information overload. You know, for some people planning for a birth or a newborn, they want to make a meticulous plan and that was one of the things that the author suggested. After a few chapters, I realized I was maybe kind of start skimming the book a little and going to chapters I thought was interesting or helpful because at least with my personality I started thinking like, “Oh, I’ve never heard of this happening before. I hope this won’t like happen to my wife.”
So I think it was just worrying about things that weren’t necessarily likely to happen, but that’s not necessarily something to disagree with. It’s just the way I approach the book versus other people.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. And with older readings, sometimes you got to be careful, because things don’t work like they used to at times. There’s a story in Aesop’s Fable about a guy who went to prison and his mom came to visit him and he bit his mom’s ear off. So I’m not advocating that kind of thing.
But the core lesson was the gentleman felt like his mom didn’t discipline him when he was younger and if she had just done that, could have saved him his grief. So yeah, there’s aspects you disagree with, but you’re looking for the core lesson that’s going to be positive, so.
David Watts: So from your experience, Fred, how would you relate what you’ve learned in the book to a new parent like Tom? How would you relate your experience in what he should be mindful of as he reads these books?
Fred Akuffo: Actually I think Tom said it best. You take what you think you need, what you think you don’t need, you don’t exactly incorporate, ask advice from the people you love around you, and work with your wife on making it all work out.
David Watts: Do the parenting books, you have both read, acknowledge that there are norms that should be followed and are those norms applicable even in other cultures?
Tom Palmer: Yeah, I would say the books I read, although I’m not you know, terribly right at this point, but it did touch on some you know, cultural aspect, but it was tended to be from a reaction of a western standpoint. So it did touch in them, but not as much as might be even helpful or interesting to me. But it’s an interesting question that hadn’t really occurred to me before this, because certain things like birth you know, might be universal. But once the baby comes out, different cultures have very different ideas of whether it’s a group mentality or the parents, and the uncles, and the grandparents all raised them, or it’s a typical modern couple where they’re sort of on their own in a new city. And it would be interesting to read a book that was more or so focused on that idea, that difference in cultures in parenting.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, I find the books lately that I’ve read don’t embrace at culture as much. They don’t encourage the young wives to talk to the older women who have been through it to get tips and tricks of how to be a mom and how to make things work, you know? I find that sometimes upon reading to even suggest that those ways are the old ways. And to me, I don’t know, to me, that’s a little bit of a lost, because I think if somebody has been through something, they can give you some input and feedback to protect you, to warn you, to give you heads up to make things easier on you.
So sometimes I think the cultural aspect is lacking in the current parenting books I’ve seen. And again, just like Tom was saying, I’m reading them from a more western point of view. And I could recognize that because I’m from a family where it’s mixed. My father is from Ghana. My mother is from America. So that presents another dynamic. You know, he was from a patriarchal society, so the mindset of a dad is a little bit different from my observation and point of view and upbringing.
Tom Palmer: Going off of that, I would say I wish there was – the books I’ve read had more – would show that it’s normal to really rely on family and friends, especially early in the baby’s life. I think that some of the books touched on that, but you might need help from a family member. But I know for my wife and I, we – I don’t know if I could take that without my mom and mother-in-law staying over some nights and helping out. And I can’t speak to it you know, exactly. But I think that’s a fairly universal idea that it’s hard with the new baby and you will need help and that it’s not a sign of weakness to need help. I wish that have been stressed a bit more in the books I’ve read.
David Watts: So you disagree with the idea that there is a right way and a wrong way and looking back sometimes judgment is laid upon older methods. And what you’re saying is you do need some of that former generation’s experience to help you navigate through what you’re going through in terms of its impact in your family, right?
Tom Palmer: Absolutely. Just in something like you know, it seems like from what I’ve read, every few years, the consensus about how to position a baby when they’re sleeping changes.
David Watts: Yes.
Tom Palmer: Whether it’s in your stomach or the back. And so I finally asked my mom because I don’t – I keep seeing different things I don’t know. And it just helps to hear like you know, “We did this and you were fine.” Not that we’ll necessary exactly follow what my mom says, but it just helps to have past generation’s input and you know, they’re saying, “Don’t do this. But we did this with you and it was okay.” So it’s just another perspective that can be helpful.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. And actually I’m not saying I disagree, but I am agreeing with Tom. These books don’t push you to go to your folks and urge you to do that. And I think that’s – to me, that seems like a loss to me. The people who care most about you I would think, would be the first people you wanted to get major, major input on. These folks know you, they know what you’re going to go through more than you do, because a new dad is a new dad every time. So you can’t do enough reading to prepare yourself.
David Watts: So let’s stay with that, okay? Let’s see if we can contrast with Tom.
Fred Akuffo: Okay.
David Watts: Given the positions that you now find yourselves in, he is the new dad, you are the more experienced dad.
Fred Akuffo: Okay.
David Watts: What changed over your course of parenting your child that differs from what you’ve read when you first got into the game? In other words, he is reading a lot of stuff and he wants to put it in the test lab and see if it works. But you’ve already been in the test labs. So tell us how your views changed over these 13-plus years that you’ve been a dad, or not.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. I mean my views are always changing.
David Watts: Okay.
Fred Akuffo: So it’s a hard question to answer, because I’ve tried to look at it on a daily discovery basis. So whereas I thought I needed to be hardline in one area, five years ago, I changed my mind and said, “Well, I’m going to not soften up, but I’m going to be flexible in that area.”
David Watts: Yeah. So that’s good advice.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, yeah.
David Watts: Yeah.
Fred Akuffo: So like, okay, I just didn’t know how to word it.
David Watts: Don’t take such a hard position because you may end up talking –.
Fred Akuffo: On certain things. Yes, on certain things. On other things, I had to – I started off not really being – I started off being indifferent. And now I’m intense you know, when it comes to certain things. So my –.
Fred Akuffo: For example, let’s say social media.
David Watts: So what would you tell him as it relates to social media? He has got a blank slate. You are in the midst of the storm right now, okay? Devices, no devices, what was your experience?
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. I went with – at first, I was no devices, then I found my family giving gifts that were devices without asking me. So now, they have a device. But with that, I found that there’s more in their mind than I know seeing what they are interested in, seeing what they’re reading, seeing what they’re typing or texting. So now, I have more of an inside window. So it’s not the evil device, but it is engagement to me. So my advice to Tom would be see what they are saying, you know –
David Watts: Right.
Fred Akuffo: – when it comes to a device you know.
David Watts: And in fact it added a perspective. From a little further up road –
Fred Akuffo: Absolutely.
David Watts: – is balanced. It’s always about balance, you know? My kids have devices and they’re on their devices, but I make them trade device time for reading time. So you know, if I’m going to keep this in sync with Library Matters, my kids probably read more than the average kid because they know in order to get device time, they’ve got to put in to reading. So the device sort of gets taken and the candle gets handed to them and then they’ve got to put that time in. And you know, the device tells me how much they’ve read, which is a good feature of device. So that’s all I would say to you guys, is strike a balance and, you know –
Fred Akuffo: That’s good. That’s good.
David Watts: – try to keep everything on a level plane.
Tom Palmer: And I would say that’s how my parents were. I’m, I would say, lucky enough to sort of, social media wasn’t around when I was younger but you know, like video games, stuff like that where my mom’s deal was, “You want a video game, great, you can save up for it and wait until Christmas. But any book you want, I’ll buy you.” And so that encouraged me to read and if I hadn’t read early, it just – I’m not sure I would be a librarian or the reader I am today.
So – but she was by no means you know, “No video games,” which would have you know, made me turn me away from books. So I agree that at least from my perspective of as a child, that balance was always really important.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, this is interesting, what you are talking about with the time, we call a social media time share, you know? I would like to think about that more. So that’s something that – and that’s what good. That’s why it’s good to hear how people have gone through things, have done things you know, because you can really get some powerful tools that you might not have exactly thought about at that time.
David Watts: We like to always ask our guest what they’re reading on their nightstand or whatever it is that they are consuming, maybe you’re consuming electronically. But what are you reading now or what is your favorite read?
Tom Palmer: Right now, I’m reading sort of a throwback foundation by Isaac Asimov on the young adult library at Silver Spring. So I’m always trying to keep abreast of young adult literature, but sometimes I just need to nerd out and have some fantasy or some science fiction. And so yeah, it’s good so far.
Fred Akuffo: I’m reading The Truth about Money. It’s good to know. I like to tell my son about money and how it really works. He was interested in buying more things. I don’t really give him money. So the only way he gets this is if he works. But I talk to him about, if you make money, you might want to save the money. And he is wondering why and how. So The Truth About Money is a good read. I think so.
David Watts: Would you read that to him?
Fred Akuffo: We read it together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Watts: Wonderful. Awesome.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, yeah.
David Watts: Wonderful. Let me also ask you, how often do you guys read to your children?
Fred Akuffo: I don’t read as much as I should or would like to. What I did a lot with my kids is have them listen to books on tape, books on audio CD, and they listened to a lot of stories from a series called Adventures in Odyssey, they listened to that like every night.
David Watts: I can remember, Tom, when my kids were smaller, there was a show in PBS called Reading Rainbow.
Tom Palmer: Oh, yeah.
David Watts: Yeah, yeah. And I would get the book and you know, get into the role and read to them. Do you see yourself doing something like that with Theo?
Tom Palmer: I can’t wait. He is so young right now. When he was in utero, we read the books to him –
David Watts: Wow.
Tom Palmer: – because we’ve read that that is helpful. I’m not convinced. But everyone says like it helps develop their brains. It could – but you know, I don’t know if that did anything. And we are not reading – well, there’s these books for instance, Black on White. I think it’s by Tana Hoban I think is the author. And it’s just sort of everyday objects with a white background in dark black, and it’s just about the – supposed to be good film, their vision, like the contrast of the black versus white. So that’s sort of where we’re limited to right now.
But of course we do the goofy voices with him. It feels like I rarely talk in my own voice at home anymore. But I’m very excited. That was a huge part of my childhood. It was my parent reading to me. And so as soon as I get the feeling he is actually going to get something from it, we’ll start doing some real books.
Fred Akuffo: And the reading part, I don’t do as much, but I make up a lot of stories. So my kids love hearing stories about what I call Clarence Boddicker. And Clarence Boddicker is a guy who – all the Clarence Boddicker stories are stories where I made stupid mistakes, but they don’t know it’s me. So the “me” is the Clarence –.
David Watts: So they come soliciting these stories from you?
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, they love Clarence Boddicker.
David Watts: Okay.
Fred Akuffo: And they can’t wait to see what happens.
David Watts: How does that make you feel?
Fred Akuffo: It’s good. It’s good, because something positive can finally come out of it. The stories are vivid. They’re compelling, because they’re real, you know? And Clarence Boddicker has to make a decision in the story and he messes up, he messes up all the time. But these are things that they can be prepared for ahead of time so they don’t do the same thing that I did when I was little, so.
Tom Palmer: Did your dad read to you?
Fred Akuffo: No, my dad told me stories.
David Watts: Okay, so you’ll continue.
Fred Akuffo: So I guess I’m – yeah, yeah.
Tom Palmer: I’d have to steal that idea from you.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah. But because, see, my father is West African, so his stories dealt with a lot of walking and talking animals.
David Watts: Okay.
Fred Akuffo: So – and those are stories you know, I’m sure you’ve heard the Anansi type stories.
David Watts: Yes.
Fred Akuffo: They’re very, very similar to that and –.
David Watts: And did that impact your reading?
Fred Akuffo: Definitely, definitely. In fact, that’s probably why I like Aesop’s Fable so much, because you know, they’re walking talking animals, too, and have life lessons stories and character building and all that kind of thing. So maybe that’s why I don’t like modern-day parenting looks because there’s no animals in them, you know? But yeah, I think entertaining your kids are you parent them is something that –
David Watts: Is important.
Fred Akuffo: – you want to keep in mind, too you know. It’s not just about lessons, but you got to search to entertain them, you got to be creative.
In fact, the creativity is probably the most important part because it just – it gives them color in their brains. And I don’t know. That’s probably a sorry way to describe it. But that’s the only way I can think. You’re painting a picture and they get a chance to do that with you. So yeah, the entertainment part is big in our family you know. We definitely laugh a lot and talk about what we’ve laughed about later, so yeah.
David Watts: How about you, Tom, did your dad read to you as a child and you feel it’s important to keep that going?
Tom Palmer: Absolutely, and I would say my dad actually is sort of more of a storyteller, and my mom was more of the reader. But I’m very, very grateful to them for instilling that in me. And I don’t remember ever being forced to read. They somehow were able to get me interested, and that’s one of those fears I have as a parent is what if my son doesn’t want to read one day and we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. But it’s just – it’s so important to me. It developed my imagination, critical thinking, helped me as a writer. So that’s – it’s a huge, huge deal for me and it’s something that I want to instill in my son definitely.
Fred Akuffo: Yeah, if you ever come across that, not wanting to read, have them read, choose your own adventure.
Tom Palmer: Oh yeah.
Fred Akuffo: That will help them.
Tom Palmer: All right, point taken.
David Watts: I want to thank both of you for being our guest today on Library Matters. And for our listeners, we’re going to keep the conversation going by following us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Pinterest. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. Also please review and rate us on iTunes; we’d love to know what you think. Thank you for listening to our conversation today. See you next time.
Recording Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2017
Episode Summary: Two MCPL dads discuss books for both new and experienced fathers.
Notable Quote: “I’m not sure I have a [parenting] style, honestly. I’m on the lookout for one.”
Books, Movies, Television Shows, and Audio Mentioned During this Episode:
Adventures in Odyssey online Christian audio drama
The Birth Partner by Penny Simkin
Aesop’s Fables by Aesop
Dad’s Playbook by Tom Limbert
Be Prepared by Gary Greenberg
Betters Dads, Stronger Sons by Rick Johnson
Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Meg Meeker
Boy Scout Handbook from Boy Scouts of America
Black on White by Tana Hoban
Foundation by Isaac Asimov
Reading Rainbow Television show
The Truth About Money by Ric Edelman
Books and other resources not owned by MCPL may be available through our Marina & interlibrary loan services.
Other Items of Interest Mentioned During this Episode: